Interview with William Lloyd and Anna Baird Lloyd, 1988 June 8 [audio](part 1)
- Mrs. Lloyd's grandmother, Katie Gallagher; William Lloyd looking at photographs in "The Workers' World at Hagley" by Glenn Porter; ice skating on the BrandywineKeywords: "The Workers' World at Hagley" by Glenn Porter; coal wagons; Experimental Station; Henry Clay (Del. : Village); ice skates; ice skating; Lenape (Pa.); Lloyd's Hill; swimmingTranscript: Johnson: Today is June 8, 1988. My name is Dorothy Johnson. I'm interviewing Bill Lloyd who lived in the powder yards.
Mrs. Lloyd: The Gibbons house was a double house and next door were the Gallagher's. My Grandmother was Katie Gallagher and when her mother died, she was a young teenager, Mrs. Gibbons took over and helped her as much as she could, 'cause she ran the house. And then when Mrs. Gibbons died, she had this one son and she had a daughter, and I can't think of her - Susan, I think her daughter was Susan.
Johnson: This is Mrs. Gallagher had the daughter?
Mrs. Lloyd: My Grandmother was Katie Gallagher. Mrs. Gibbons had a daughter. And then she had the one son, Neil Gibbons, who never married. And when she was dying, she asked my Grandmother, Katie Gallagher, to always look out for him. So even though he had this sister, it was my Grandmother and Grandfather who took him in and he lived with them 'til they died.
Johnson: Oh, wasn't that nice.
Mrs. Lloyd: I can't imagine what's happened to...
Johnson: And that was Annie Gibbons who took care of...
Mrs. Lloyd: Who showed Katie Gallagher, when her mother died, how to do everything. And then she took over Annie Gibbons' son. She was almost as old as Grandmother, but he lived with them until my Grandmother and Grandfather died. That was how many years? Like fifty or sixty years.
Johnson: Do you remember anything she told her - how to cook or anything like that?
Mrs. Lloyd: Oh no, I don't remember that. It's funny, they didn't talk much, you know. Now my Grandmother Gallagher was born in this country, but her husband - I have her father's papers when he was made a citizen and of course he came from the Old Country. But they didn't talk about their backgrounds, their people or anything.
Johnson: I think that's true of most of our ancestors.
Mrs. Lloyd: Never bothered, now we want to know you know, and there's no one left in the Gallagher family that - the one who would have known was my Mother and my Aunt, and they are both dead.
Johnson: Now what was your father's name?
Mrs. Lloyd: Oh, I was a Walsh - my Father, but he wasn't a Creeker, and his people came from Ireland.
[Machine is turned off and then back on again.]
William Lloyd: We would go up to Lenape and we'd put a canoe in the water, then we would come down, you know. And it was just out of this world, it was just like you were in a country of your own. I really enjoyed my life there. I wish my children had the opportunity to, you know, go through the things I went through.
Johnson: Where do your children live now?
William Lloyd: One's in Smyrna and one's in on - back of Frank Diver's off of Pennsylvania Avenue, I think it's Grant Street, and the other one is about two or three miles from us.
Johnson: Well, they're not so far away.
William Lloyd: No, but...
Johnson: They don't have the same experience.
William Lloyd: Well, they don't have the same freedom that we had. See, when they were growing up, they put up signs, "No Swimming" and things like this, you know, where we had all this. And then we didn't have as many cars, we could sled down the hills whatever we wanted to do. It was fantastic. I lived a full life - if I die tonight [laughs].
[Tape turned off and on again.]
Johnson: Now what would be the name of the place where you were born?
William Lloyd: You're gonna have to bear with me, because when I come up to a name, I just can't...
Johnson: Okay, what about the house you just showed me, do you know what street that was on?
William Lloyd: This street here?
William Lloyd: I'm not sure, because we never went by streets in those days, you know what I mean, what we went by was - you're on this side of the creek or the other side, you know, and that's how you were - now right here where this old bridge went up - the road come straight up - that was Lloyd's Hill. And I was born right at the bottom of that hill.
Johnson: I wanted to ask you, was Lloyd's Hill named for your father or yourself?
William Lloyd: Yeah, his father, his father, yeah.
Johnson: Okay, and what job did he have in the powder yards?
William Lloyd: I'm not sure even whether he worked in the powder yard or not. He worked with Experimental Station, and my Father worked with Experimental Station. And I think my Father was too young to be really in the powder, in the powder yard. But Aunt Annie, she had one or two brothers, and I don't know how many more people that was in her family that was killed up there - in the powder yard.
[Looking at photographs in "The Workers' World at Hagley" by Glenn Porter]
This old bridge here, when I went to school I lived over on this side of the creek and I had to walk that bridge. And I was scared to death of that bridge when I was a kid.
Johnson: Why was that - was it dark?
William Lloyd: It had all wooden planks on it, and big holes in the planks and you'd look down and you could see the water. You wouldn't even think it would hold you.
Johnson: Oh, now nobody else has told us that. Did they have cars go across that bridge?
William Lloyd: Yeah.
Johnson: That's what I thought.
William Lloyd: But at that time there wasn't as many cars on the road as there is now.
[Mrs. Lloyd returns and remarks that someone is on her way.]
William Lloyd: Now, what they would do here, where the Experimental Station, they had three or four colored fellows work there and they would drive a team of horses and they would come on this side of the bridge and come right up here to Rising Sun, where the railroad track come in, and they would haul coal in the wagon across there and dump it. And that's where they got their power from the coal.
But all down through here there was - see you only see the one - two mills here, and there was all kinds of mills in here. They made cloth and everything else.
Johnson: Yes. I guess some of them burned down, is that right?
William Lloyd: I think DuPont's tore most of them down. Yeah, they tore the whole thing down. I was just looking here. At one time, over here at the Experimental Station, I remember when it was just a machine shop and a canoe rack. And everybody in the machine shop had a canoe and Saturdays and Sundays when they weren't working, they would come there and ride in the canoes up and down the creek.
Johnson: Did they go fishing, or just canoe for fun?
William Lloyd: Well, most of it was for pleasure, because the fish in there wasn't much, you know, it was carp and catfish and things like that. Oh this picture here, I don't know when that was taken, not too old.
Johnson: Do you remember swimming around that area?
William Lloyd: Oh yeah, we swam - see this dam right here?
William Lloyd: We dove off of this dam right where these rocks are. What happened was the high tide, or not the high tide, but the high floods come down, they washed the rocks out and they left pockets there. And we would swim all through here, but where you see the rocks now is where we swam.
Johnson: We're looking at Page 18 of the "Workers' World Book."
William Lloyd: And then on the other side of this, we had a rope up and I'll show you pictures, we got pictures of that.
William Lloyd: [Continued] I've got a lot of pictures home of that. I don't know who these two guys are.
This water - on this - we had a flood up here. This water, I seen this water come clear up over top of this, that wall, and that wall is eight foot high.
Johnson: It must have been hard on those houses on the right hand side.
William Lloyd: No, the houses up here, there's a big wall, there was a wall up - you can't see that wall, that's what I was looking for. But there's a wall goes right straight up there. See that's facing to the north.
Johnson: Yes, right.
William Lloyd: This here, this is facing towards Rockford Park. My Mother's mother was born down in here somewhere.
Johnson: What would they call that village?
William Lloyd: It's all Henry Clay, but I couldn't tell you. They've all got different names for them, you know. You go from one generation to another, they got a different name for it. As soon as we get up and talk to Aunt Annie, she'll tell you who lived in them.
Johnson: That would be nice. You said you went skating there, too, right, we're on Page 20.
William Lloyd: I could be one of these kids on the side.
Johnson: What kind of skates did you have, do you remember that?
William Lloyd: Yeah, we had the kind that you put on the shoe and tighten up, and then we eventually got the shoe skate and they were like hockey skates, and then as I got - oh I guess I was about fourteen or fifteen years older, then I got the figure skates that was round in the front.
Johnson: How long did you skate on the Brandywine - even when you had the figure skates?
William Lloyd: Well we would start skating - when it would freeze over - it wouldn't take long, you had about two inches of ice, it would hold you and then that would keep getting thicker and thicker. Now we went down there with hatchets and we'd cut ice blocks out and they were over three foot thick one year.
Johnson: Is that right?
William Lloyd: Yeah - that whole Brandywine was over three foot thick.
Johnson: It doesn't freeze like that now any more, does it?
William Lloyd: No, no. And then we skated - there's dams up above, the next dam up is about six or seven foot high, and we skated right up over the dam. The ice was all, you know, solid from it.
Johnson: Now would that be kind of hilly too?
William Lloyd: Beg your pardon?
Johnson: Would it be hilly too, when you had go up the dam?
William Lloyd: Yeah, it was all downhill.
Johnson: That must have been fun.
William Lloyd: Yeah, the Brandywine - I don't think you realize this or not, but if you was to go up Lenape and it was froze and you would get on skates, all you had to do was come out and get on the ice and stand there and you would go, because it was all downhill, all downhill. That water runs all downhill, there's no tidewater there. And you come all the way down.
Johnson: When you cut the ice out of the river, were you going to use the ice for anything? Or did you just do it to check it out?
William Lloyd: No, no, we were just checking to see how deep it was.
- Continuing to look at photographs in "The Workers' World at Hagley" by Glenn Porter of Alexis I. du Pont School, Breck's Mill, Walker's Banks, and Walker's MillKeywords: Alexis I. du Pont School (Wilmington, Del.); Breck's Mill; Hodgson Bros. woolen mill; Squirrel Run; street-railroads; trolley; Walker's Banks; Walker's MillTranscript: Now here's where I went to school.
Johnson: U-huh, Alexis I.
William Lloyd: Yeah, this was the old school. That's just what it looked like, too.
Johnson: What year were you born, would you be willing to tell us that?
William Lloyd: Yeah, that was 1921. This has all been changed around.
Johnson: Yes. Now at the turn of the century they called that the Hagley Community House, but now we've gone back to the name Breck's Mill again, but it looks a little different 'cause they go in the other side now for the Museum activities, and then there's a sculptor who lives on the third floor. He uses the door on the left there.
William Lloyd: Chick Laird, I think it was, that took it over and he did a lot to it, he changed it around. I guess the race that was through here - and that wall - let me get this straight now. That was just like a swamp down in there, and then they put the stone in and everything and closed that race up.
Johnson: Where would the water go then, just under the ground?
William Lloyd: Yeah, it would come down and just come around here, then at this back end here there was like a wheel. I guess that's where they got their power from to run that mill off of that wheel.
Johnson: There's a big stone inside there and people ask what that's for. I bet it was to close up where the wheel was. Or maybe it was part of the wheel.
William Lloyd: It could be part of the wheel.
Johnson: That's Alfred I. du Pont's orchestra. Do you remember anything about that? That would have been way before your time I think.
William Lloyd: That was way before my time, yeah.
Johnson: One of the people we talked to, her father was in that orchestra, she can remember that.
William Lloyd: I'm anxious to hear what Aunt Annie's got to say. If she sees these faces, I know she's got to remember an awful lot. Her mind is better than mine, believe me.
Johnson: That's an area they call Squirrel Run.
William Lloyd: Squirrel Run, yeah. That was right up - well Brub lived right up in back of Hallock's barn up there as you come over the bridge and you look down, you can see the barn, and Brub lived in that house in back of that. Then Squirrel Run started about a block away from his house and ran right on up almost to the, what we used to call the end of the line, where the trolley went up there.
Johnson: What was that name that you just told me - who lived there?
William Lloyd: Brub, Brub Baird.
Johnson: Okay, B-R-U-B?
William Lloyd: Yeah. He's gonna be going up to Philly with us when he comes out.
Johnson: I think that picture on Page 43 is Walker's Bank.
William Lloyd: Yeah, Walker's Banks, yeah. That's the place I was born in, I think.
Johnson: Do you remember who your next door neighbors would have been there?
William Lloyd: Yeah - Kindbeiter and Andy Dougherty's people. I'm just trying to think of the rest of them that was over there. And the Compstons, they were in the next block up. And there was a single house up there, McLafferty's lived in that house. I'm trying to think who was on either side of us that lived there. See, I was awful young when I lived there, and then we moved about two blocks up. But that's what that is - Walker's Banks.
Johnson: Were the McLafferty's related to the ones who had the dancing school?
William Lloyd: I really couldn't tell you, I really don't know. It was a big yellow house and later on McVeigh's lived there. See up there they kept moving around in a circle and they would move from one house to the other, and they always tried to better their self. They thought they were bettering their self by, you know, stepping up. If one house got empty, they moved right in.
Johnson: I think that one person in that picture is Peter Kindbeiter. Of course, again that would be...
William Lloyd: Which one?
Johnson: I think the one in the - either this one or this one, I'm not sure which of those two.
William Lloyd: This looks like, well [Buddy?] Kindbeiter would be Pete's son, and his son just died a few years ago and he looks just like this guy. Cat - who's this look like right here?
Mrs. Lloyd: Oh, Jimmy.
William Lloyd: Jimmy Kindbeiter, don't it? Spitting image of him.
Johnson: Okay, this is Page 50, the third person from the left in the seated group in the top picture.
William Lloyd: That's the spitting image of Jimmy Kindbeiter, and whether it's a Kindbeiter or not, I don't know.
Mrs. Lloyd: I'm just wondering if my Great-grandfather Gallagher was in there, he should be in there. I've got the picture of all his crew.
Betty thought she said quarter of three, but she said two, and she's really apologetic. Now she can't find Brub. You know Brub, he'll take his time.
William Lloyd: This is the old mill when Hodgson had it.
Mrs. Lloyd: Before Hodgson, was Walker's Mill.
William Lloyd: Yeah, this is the privy houses here, I think.
Johnson: Oh, right to the left of the mill.
William Lloyd: I think that's - there was a couple out back and I think Compston's was on this side. Then the ones for this mill was over in back of this one. They had a group of them over there.
Johnson: Did you know anybody who worked for the mill?
William Lloyd: Yeah, I knew the...
Mrs. Lloyd: Your Mother worked there.
William Lloyd: My Mother worked there, she worked there. Well, practically everybody up there at that time worked for the mill at one time or another.
Johnson: Yes, they probably didn't do it after they got married, it was just...
William Lloyd: No, they went to work when they were about eight, ten or eleven years old.
Johnson: Could they work in the mill part times, just on Saturday?
William Lloyd: They worked full time, yeah. And it was like seven days a week, I think.
Mrs. Lloyd: No, I think they worked six days a week.
William Lloyd: Was it six? Then Joe Schofield, he lived at the top of Breck's Lane, he lost his arm in there.
Johnson: In the woolen mill?
William Lloyd: Yeah, in the woolen mill. He got caught in the needles.
Johnson: Oh boy, you wouldn't think that would be so dangerous.
William Lloyd: He was just a young guy then.
Mrs. Lloyd: Is he still living?
William Lloyd: No, Joe's dead now.
Johnson: Did he go on working there after he lost his arm?
William Lloyd: I really don't know to tell you the truth, because he was - I guess Joe was twenty years older than I am anyway.
Mrs. Lloyd: I think Mrs. Steptoe was named for her mother, I think she was Anna Steptoe. See she was a Gibbons and then she married a Steptoe.
Johnson: Before you came back, your wife was telling me that her grandmother lived in half of the double house that Anna Gibbons lived in.
Mrs. Lloyd: I have the same picture, just found it this week, but it doesn't have all the trees, it must have been taken in the fall or the winter.
William Lloyd: I told her, you know, I thought we had a picture of that.
Johnson: That's the first picture in the "Workers' World Book."
Mrs. Lloyd: Look at all the kids ice skating there. Our girls ice skated when they were just little, Gordy took them out.
Johnson: When you had those ice skates that you had to fasten onto your shoe, did you have strings to tie them on with?
William Lloyd: Yeah, they had a leather strap and then they had a cleat like the roller skates that went over top of the leather sole and they locked in.
Johnson: And then you had a little key to...
William Lloyd: Yeah, and then you had a key to tighten them up. And that's what we learned to skate on.
Johnson: Well then you didn't have to worry about outgrowing the shoe the way we did later, if you got shoe skates and you outgrew them, you couldn't use them the next year.
William Lloyd: Well, if you outgrowed them, you know, they were either too big when you got them or too small and you usually growed into them or you just kept quiet.
Johnson: My brother couldn't walk at his graduation because he'd been skating the day before and his shoes were much too small, but he didn't want to tell my Mother.
Mrs. Lloyd: I can remember them talking about the Tippecanoe Club, the Tippecanoe's.
Johnson: What do you remember about it?
Mrs. Lloyd: I just remember hearing the name, that's all. Does she know anything about the honey hunts?
Johnson: Well, I've heard the term.
Mrs. Lloyd: The honey hunts, do you know about them?
Johnson: We've heard the term, want to tell me more about it?
- Introduction of Betty DeNight and Brub BairdKeywords: honey huntsTranscript: Mrs. Lloyd: He'll have to tell - can't find him?
Betty DeNight: I'm so sorry, My God, it's not...
William Lloyd: Hi Bett [laughs].
Betty DeNight: I can't believe this.
Mrs. Lloyd: This is Mrs. Jackson. This is Betty.
Betty DeNight: I told him to hurry up and putt out, and he said, "Oh my God."
Mrs. Lloyd: Didn't he remember?
Betty DeNight: No. I told him this morning.
William Lloyd: Was he playing golf, Bett, is he out playing golf?
Betty DeNight: Yeah, he's on the 18th hole. I said, "Brub." He said, "Oh my God."
Mrs. Lloyd: Oh Betty, I have something for you, I want to give it to you right away.
William Lloyd: I'll give this back to you [the "Workers" World Book"].
Johnson: This is for you to keep, can I leave it in the car?
William Lloyd: Yeah, yeah, because otherwise wherever I go, I'll leave, and I don't want to do that.
We can be talking about that honey hunt and all, you know, when we're going up to Philly, because Bett and Brub probably remember a lot about that.
[Betty makes some comments in background while looking at photographs.]
William Lloyd: She can't quite get over us having these pictures because she didn't see them.
Johnson: We have the picture of the people who are going to Mrs. Lloyd's with us - one is shown flying a plane and the other one is Betty as a drum majorette at Alexis I. Could you tell me Betty's whole name, what's her last - Betty Baird?
William Lloyd: DeNight, Betty DeNight.
Johnson: And this is Mr....
William Lloyd: Yeah, this is Brub Baird, yeah. He was in the Service, he was in the Air Corps in the Service.
Johnson: Oh - this must have been the second World War.
William Lloyd: Yeah, World War II, yeah. And see how big Betty was, she was always a big, tall strappy girl. They look like little kids, don't they?
Johnson: That must have been in the 1940's, was it. This must have been in the 1940's by the uniform.
William Lloyd: Yeah, I graduated '39, '40. I graduated before her, so that was about '38, '37, something like that.
[Tape is turned off, then back on again.]
- Brub Baird discussing his family history and identifying the location of his family's former house in Squirrel Run; Betty DeNight identifying relatives who worked in the DuPont Co. powder yards; extraneous discussionKeywords: Breck's Lane; Chauffeurs; Du Pont, S. Hallock (Samuel Hallock), 1901-1974; explosions; grist mills; Industrial accidents; Squirrel RunTranscript: Brub Baird: Right across from it, you know, in back of the barn, that house there? Right next to the Hall of Records, inside Hallock's property there? My father was the chauffeur for Hallock.
Johnson: I see. Now just which house was it - is it the one you can see on Barley Mill Lane?
Brub Baird: Yeah - the one that's back and the big pile of rocks there, and the house is right in back - well, there's a barn there too, and then he has a garage - the barn's along the bottom of Barley Mill Lane and then the garage is right in back of that and then the house is right catty-cornered off of that. That's Squirrel Run right up in there.
Johnson: I see. And what was your name, and what was your Father's name?
Brub Baird: Dutch, Dutchy. Everybody called him Dutch. It was William, his first name.
Johnson: And his last name was...
Brub Baird: Baird - B-A-I-R-D.
Johnson: Yes, thank you. Do you know when he was born by any chance.
Brub Baird: Let's see, Daddy was born - let's see, he died in - he was 67 when he died, and he died in '60, so that would make it '93, I guess, 1893. And Mother, she was 63 when she died, and that was in '62.
Johnson: Was she a Creeker too?
Brub Baird: Yeah - well, most of the time she was a Creeker.
Johnson: Did her father work for the DuPont Company?
Brub Baird: M-m-m-m, let's see, did grandpop worked for DuPont's, no, I don't think so, he was a carpenter.
Johnson: And how about your grandfather, would he have been a powder worker?
Brub Baird: Grandfather Baird was, yeah.
Johnson: Oh, where did he work, do you know?
Brub Baird: Well let's see, Neeny Baird worked there, and the one that got blown up was James, wasn't it? James, he got blown up. But first of all, he was - well Aunt Annie can tell you about him, it was her brother. He got his arms caught in something at Bancroft's and his arms were kinda like this and then he was one of those that got blown up when - I think it was that - about thirty or something got blown up at one time, and he was one of those.
Johnson: Do you know what year that was?
Brub Baird: Gad, no.
Johnson: Well, maybe she can tell me.
Brub Baird: I think Aunt Annie can tell you, though.
Johnson: Was her maiden name Baird?
Brub Baird: Yeah. Yeah, that was my Father's sister, and she married Gordy's uncle that was Frank Lloyd.
Johnson: And are you a Creeker too?
Betty DeNight: Yes. I've lived there all my life.
Johnson: What was you...
Betty DeNight: On Breck's Lane. What was the name of the place on the other side of the creek - oh, Walker's Bank. I was born at Walker's Bank, and I guess I was about four years old when Mother moved over on - Mother and Dad moved over on Breck's Lane and then I lived there all my life. My Grandfather and all my uncles worked in the powder mill - powder yard. There was Uncle Frank and Uncle Albert and Uncle Bill and Pop-Pop. And Mother used to say every time they - I guess it was a whistle or something they blew, you know, when they had the - or I guess you could hear the explosion, yeah, cause it rocked all the homes. She said they all used to run, you know, up to the gates to see what was happening, find what was happening, yeah.
Brub Baird: Find out if there was any of their family that was blown up.
Betty DeNight: My Grandmother and Pop-Pop Buchanan lived right up the hill from us, they lived there all their life.
Brub Baird: He's one of the ones that...
Betty DeNight: They have a big picture of Pop-Pop and the whole family up in Hagley, it's a huge picture of Mom-Mom and Pop-Pop and about four or five of the children. There were eight children all together.
Johnson: Now what were their names?
Betty DeNight: Buchanan.
Johnson: And what was your father's name?
Betty DeNight: DeNight - Daddy worked at Electric Hose and Rubber, he didn't work up there. And my Uncle Albert got half of his foot blown off up there, he had half a foot.
Johnson: It's a wonder that they wanted to work there.
Betty DeNight: Yeah, my gosh.
Brub Baird: Well, you know, it was probably the only - well outside of Bancroft, it was the only place, probably, around. Oh a lot of the mills - all those - Breck's Mill and all them, you know - grist mills.
Johnson: I guess they were dangerous then, too, they had the accidents in the mill.
Brub Baird: Yeah, I guess Jamesey was only 13 or 14 when he got his arms caught in some kind of a machine pulling the yarn.
Johnson: They weren't safety minded in those days the way they are now.
Brub Baird: But Aunt Annie can tell you all about Jamesey and all them, because he was her brother. In fact, he was the youngest one of the Baird's. In fact, I'll probably be the last one of our string of Baird's that I know of. All the rest of then, you know, had girls. My Uncle Joe, he had a daughter, we had a daughter - no boys, so when I go, I think I'll be the last one of our string of Baird's that I know of.
Betty DeNight: Just have to get pregnant or adopt one and name it Baird [laughter].
William Lloyd: Better go down to S.P.C.A. and pick up a good dog.
Betty DeNight: Right, right. Wish I could remember some of the stories Pop-Pop used to tell us. We used to sit up at the garage - he used to sit up - remember, Gordy, he used to sit up there at the garage all the time in that old cane chair.
Brub Baird: Yeah, he could tell you all the - go on all day about - any of these old people - like Aunt Annie, she'd be able to tell you all kind of stuff about up the mill. It's amazing...
William Lloyd: ...how this woman remembers it.
Brub Baird: As old as she is, and she can remember all that.
William Lloyd: She'd give you the time and the date, just like she seen it.
Betty DeNight: She remembers more about me than I do myself.
[Looking at some more pictures.]
[Tape is turned off and then back on again.]
- Discussing photographs of Henry Clay area in "Workers' World; " trestle over Breck's Lane; Lizzie Dorman; toppling Sam Foote's outhouse on HalloweenKeywords: Halloween; Lizzie Dorman; Long Row; outhouses; pranks; TrestlesTranscript: [Continue looking at pictures-miscellaneous comments.]
William Lloyd: Dunlop and that gang, Billy Montgomery and them, they used to get up on top of that trestle in the wintertime and they'd get these milk balls...and they'd throw them down the chimney. We'd be sitting in the front room, the old stove, the door would fly open on the stove, and out would fly everything, down would come a ball.
[They continue to drive along looking at the pictures of Long Row, cooper shop, etc., and making comments.]
William Lloyd: We don't even remember these houses here were in back of Low Row there. See here's the track up here, and then see here's Long Row, and then there was a row of houses right here. Here's where Aunt Mame lived or whatever. Well Lizzie. Here's where Mustard lived.
Mrs. Lloyd: Aunt Mame lived at the top of Rising Sun.
Johnson: What was Lizzie's last name?
Mrs. Lloyd: Lizzie Dorman.
Brub Baird: We used to tantalize her, a lot of the kids did. She was a real old lady.
Johnson: Did she keep the store there?
William Lloyd: Who's that, Red Lizzie?
Brub Baird: Yeah.
[Some discussion about who Lizzie was.]
Brub Baird: Oh, I forget what her name was. Jimmy Haley used to live alongside of her. Some of the guys shoved his toilet over with him in it one night. Halloween, you know.
Betty DeNight: Probably Gordy and Brub.
William Lloyd: We got Sam Foote one night. He wired his outhouse up, drove stakes in the ground, and he says - come down there and he says, "You guys won't get mine this year." And he was sitting inside of it, so we went and we got a pair of bolt cutters, we knowed what he had done. We got some old rags, and we wrapped the wire in rags so it wouldn't set a vibrations, you know, when you cut it. And when we pushed it over, we pushed it over on the door and Sam couldn't get out of the toilet.
William Lloyd: All those stones that you see up there at Hallock's place, where Brub used to live, that's the foundation of the old trestle. They took it up there and they piled them all up.
[Additional comments on photographs.]
Brub Baird: Bert Mathewson went up there and he got one and he had a tombstone made out of it.
Betty DeNight: Do they sell this book at the Museum?
Betty DeNight: Oh, I'd like to go get it.
Johnson: Well, they're giving these to people who give us interviews, so we'll give you one, too.
[End of Tape 1, Side A]
[They continue to look at pictures and make comments.]
- Continued miscellaneous group discussion of photographs of Brandywine Manufacturer's Sunday School and Breck's Mill; discussion of playground on Breck's Lane and Hagley basketball team; Brub Baird getting injured with a knife as a child; toll gate on Kennett Pike; community midwivesKeywords: Brandywine Manufacturer's Sunday School; Breck's Lane; Delaware Route 52; Hagley Community House (Breck's Mill); Midwives; toll gatesTranscript: Johnson: What do you remember about that, we restored that to look like it did when it was a school, we call it the Brandywine Manufacturer's Sunday School. Do you remember anything about that?
Brub Baird: I don't remember too much about it, but my Aunt Bert used to live right in that house down from that.
Johnson: What was her name?
Brub Baird: Watson. They lived right up there by the - what the heck was it - pretty near up to the swinging bridge, right up across from Chicken Alley. He worked for - what was that guy's name, Laird? No, no, no, not Laird.
William Lloyd: Wasn't Dean's - Simpson Dean?
Brub Baird: No...There's the old Breck's Mill. Look at this old thing here, this is before our time, that bridge.
William Lloyd: Yeah, I remember that, I think, Brub.
Johnson: Page 33.
Brub Baird: I don't remember that bridge. I remember, it was always...
William Lloyd: That tower and all on that mill, I remember that.
Brub Baird: Oh yeah, this, but I mean this bridge here was from the time I remember it was always, you know, had like a 12 x 12 across the...see and there's all that stuff down there, the machinery and stuff in back of the mill there.
William Lloyd: Yeah, where the race comes through, where you used to play cards.
Brub Baird: This is up around Aunt Bert's too. My Father used to - he was the playground director for a while too, they had a playground up at the top of Breck's Lane where it levels off there, right after you come off the pike.
Betty DeNight: They used to play basketball and all in Breck's Mill.
Brub Baird: They played basketball up in here. I forget what the heck the name of the team was. I guess it was Hagley.
William Lloyd: We used to go in there and play basketball, you know, sneak in.
Johnson: Who were the boys that your father coached, were they part of a school team, or did he just make a team up?
Brub Baird: Just all the kids that used to play in the playground.
Johnson: Was it connected with Tom Dunlop?
Brub Baird: Yeah, Tommy Dunlop...Let's see, there was the Dunlop's and, well, the Heatherton's.
William Lloyd: Montgomery's.
Brub Baird: Billy Montgomery, Joe - you know, one-armed Joe.
William Lloyd: Joe Schofield...All the kids that were raised in the valley were there.
Brub Baird: Yeah, all the ones that...We lived in that house there where Schofield's used to live. Toddy was coming home from school one day, and I don't know, he was about - oh I guess he was about eight or nine, and I was about five or something like that. He was running me and he threw this knife and hit me in the back of the neck here and my Mother said she come out and she said the blood was just a-gushing out of there. Then later on, we used to be playing cowboys and Indians or something and at that time I was about thirteen or fourteen, and Toddy would be with us, you know, and I'd get him down and remind him of the time he stabbed me in the back of the neck with his knife.
Betty DeNight: Wasn't your father in the band?
Brub Baird: He was in the police band.
Johnson: That's Alfred I. du Pont's hand.
William Lloyd: You know, you talk about houses of the Schofield's up there, that used to be the old toll gate.
Brub Baird: Yeah, well see, that's where we lived.
William Lloyd: And somebody had a picture of the toll gate and I couldn't remember where it was, that's where it was. You had to pay to go up there.
Betty DeNight: Do you know Woody Williams, he used to live up there too - Woody Williams and his father - the whole family did.
Brub Baird: That name's awfully familiar. Look at this, is that Long Row?
Betty DeNight: No that's where - it's across the creek where...
Brub Baird: Walker's Banks?
Betty DeNight: No, it's right outside the Experimental Station - where Maddie and Pierre Ferraro lived, yeah, that's here.
William Lloyd: Yeah, that's where I was born, down in there, yeah.
Brub Baird: Well I was born up in back of Blakeley's, you know them - well that's where I was. I was the only one in our family that was born in a hospital.
Mrs. Lloyd: Burt and Elva were - well my Grandmother was a midwife for Burt, and I think Susie was a midwife for Elva.
Johnson: What was your grandmother's name? Did she do this for everybody, or just for her family?
Brub Baird: She was a midwife.
Johnson: What was her name?
Brub Baird: She was a Baird. That was Aunt Annie's mother.
Johnson: I interviewed someone else, Ella Fitzharris, whose grandmother you knew, Grandmother Farrin, and she was a midwife.
Brub Baird: Oh yeah, is that right, yeah, yeah. I guess a lot of them did it in them days, and they helped each other or something.
Johnson: When you were born in the hospital, where did you go?
Brub Baird: Gad, I don't know even which one [laughs]. I was never one to pay much attention to that. I've got a cousin, Frankie Cahoon, he does a lot towards the family tree and stuff like that. Like he gave us some stuff with the Baird crest on it and all that stuff, you know, and he tries to find all these - his name's Cahoon, Frankie Cahoon. His mother was a Baird, and was Aunt Annie's sister. But he's into everything, trying to go back - he's gone pretty far back on his family tree. We were never - I was never interested in it - trying to trace back. But he gave us - I've got some cups home and it's got the crest on it and he gave me some ties and stuff like that.
Johnson: Oh - now where did he get the crest?
Brub Baird: I think he got it somewhere - from out in Frisco or something, they have a lot of...
Johnson: He didn't have to go the Europe and get that?
Brub Baird: No, no he didn't. There's some place out there - he lives in - what the heck's the name of that place - it's right near Frisco. Do you remember where it is he lives?
[Some comments about the direction they are taking.]
- Continued miscellaneous group discussion of photographs of DuPont Co. rolling mills and William Buchanan; identifying Mrs. Mathewson and others as good potential interview subjectsKeywords: baseball; Chicken Alley; Rolling-mills; swinging bridgeTranscript: Brub Baird: I'll bettcha Aunt Annie will know a lot of these people. Look at that - there's the old rolling mills. That's where - what used to blow up a lot, you know, they'd be grinding that powder around in there and a spark and - boom.
William Lloyd: There was a piece of that metal up in the tree up there, I don't know whether it's still there or not, I doubt it. You remember - the whole...
Brub Baird: I remember it being in the tree, but I don't remember whether it's still there, or where it is or anything about it now.
Betty DeNight: There's William Buchanan, born in Henry Clay Village, he and his father worked there.
Brub Baird: We used to - Gordy and I used to roam...
Betty DeNight: Hollings brothers worked there. It says William Buchanan, born in Henry Clay.
Johnson: That is your grandfather?
Betty DeNight: That's my grandfather.
Brub Baird: Yeah, practically all the people out there - Joe Haley. That was probably Jimmy Haley, wasn't it?
Betty DeNight: Did you talk to a Mrs. Mathewson?
Johnson: No, no.
Betty DeNight: She still lives up there at - you did talk...
Johnson: No, I know they had an interview with F.L. Mathewson, I read that one, but I haven't talked to her.
Betty DeNight: That's Frank, yeah that's her brother-in-law.
Brub Baird: Yeah, she might remember all that stuff.
Betty DeNight: Yes, she is very alert.
Johnson: Where does she live?
Betty DeNight: She lives up there at Dean's Estate, right in back of - there's two little - right in back of...
Brub Baird: Back of where you are. You know where the swinging bridge is? You know where Chicken Alley is?
Brub Baird: You come down through Chicken Alley and come across that swinging bridge, well we used to call it the swinging bridge, and right up that road and that's where she lives.
[Some comments on the directions to house.]
Johnson: Thank you, they'll be glad to know that, we're supposed to ask for other people.
Brub Baird: Buchanan's lived in, her uncle lived in one and Mathewson lived in the other.
Betty DeNight: I think she and her daughter live there. Wonder if Tip would know anything about...
Brub Baird: Tip might remember a lot of stuff.
Betty DeNight: Yeah, that's her son.
Brub Baird: He lived right up there all his life too. Tip was a general in the National Guard. He used to - well we played a 21-inning baseball game one night after school and Tip played on that team at P.S. du Pont. In fact, Mike Curwin got all of us together and we've been having meetings and stuff ever since.
Johnson: Did you have lights to see with at that time - did you have lights so that you could play that late?
Brub Baird: No they didn't.
Johnson: You played in the dark?
[Some more comments on directions to take.]
Brub Baird: Bert might be able to tell you some stuff too. Bert's got a pretty good memory, like she knows more about the family tree than I did.
William Lloyd: When we were young, we had all out brains kicked out [laughs].
Brub Baird: Well some people, you know, they just go into it.
[Some comments about his brother who is in Fox Chase.]
[Tape is turned off while they get out of the car and go into the house.]
[Some miscellaneous comments as they arrive and get the tape recorder hooked up.]
- Beginning of interview with Anna Baird Lloyd; being born in Charles's Banks and attending a one-room school; moving to Henry Clay across from Simon Dorman's grocery store and post office; dancing at Breck's Mill; identifying location of home in Charles' Bank; men stealing her family's water buckets to use for beer at Blakeley's tavernKeywords: Alexis I. du Pont School (Wilmington, Del.); Blakeley's tavern; Charles' Banks; Du Pont, Alfred I. (Alfred Irenee), 1864-1935; Green Hill Presbyterian Church (Wilmington, Del.); Hagley Community House (Breck's Mill); Henry Clay (Del. : Village); one-room schools; Rockland (Del.); Rural schools; Simon Dorman; springhousesTranscript: Mrs. Lloyd: This lady's with Hagley Museum, and they're getting a history of the Creek.
Anna Baird Lloyd: About the Creek? Well you know, I wasn't born in Henry Clay, I was born in a place called Charles' Banks.
William Lloyd: Let me get with you now.
Mrs. Lloyd: Where's that?
Anna Baird Lloyd: Why it's between Hagley - up near Rockland, and I went to Rockland School. You had to go through a woods and over a run to get up to that one-room schoolhouse in Rockland. Well I guess Rockland's still there. Well it was Rockland School that I went to. And then we moved from Charles Banks to Henry Clay, 'cause my Father, he drove a team of horses for DuPont's. And then we moved down to Henry Clay, and then we went to [Alexis I.] du Pont school up on the Pike.
I used to play with a du Pont girl - Madeline and Bessie du Pont. And you know I wrote to the Governor one time, he answered me letter, he told me they're both dead. There were two girls and a boy, and I used to play with the girls, Madeline and Bessie, and I give them all the history, you know, and they was tickled to death to get it.
Mrs. Lloyd: Is that Pete - is that Governor Pete du Pont?
Anna Baird Lloyd: Yes, he was Governor twice, of Delaware, you know, him. He did answer it.
Mrs. Lloyd: That was something, to answer, yeah, that was nice.
Anna Baird Lloyd: And he told me, yeah, that Alfred I. was the richest one there was at that time, you know. We used to go through their place to go to church. See we went to Green Hill Church at that time. And you'd have to walk a mile around the Pike to get up there to the church, so we used to cut through their lawn.
Betty DeNight: The Cooper Shop.
Anna Baird Lloyd: Yeah, see to go to - we'd have to go up either Breck's Lane or Rising Sun Lane, you know, and I don't know whether - I don't know whether you were born when he lived up top of Breck's Lane. You know he lived on the right hand side and his barn was on the left hand side, big yellow barn. Well then they turned that into a house, and I'll tell you who lived in there - Dunlop's, after they turned the barn into a home.
Brub Baird: Yeah, that's where the [Goodings?] lived.
Anna Baird Lloyd: See, we lived between Rising Sun and Breck's Lane, and our house set by itself right across from Simon Dorman - you remember him, don't you?
Betty DeNight: Yeah, u-huh.
Anna Baird Lloyd: Well you see, that was a grocery store and post office both, and we lived right across the street from it.
William Lloyd: Then Tommy Dunlop lived in there after the Goodings moved out, I think it was.
Mrs. Lloyd: Well, Aunt Annie, I just told Betty that they're gonna build a home where the Cooper Shop is.
Anna Baird Lloyd: Yeah?
Mrs. Lloyd: One of the twins, one of the Laird twins, her son is gonna build a house, and is gonna keep the one wall where the fireplace is, because it's a National Register or something, and that's going to be built into his house.
Anna Baird Lloyd: Is that building still at the bottom of Breck's Lane, that building near - you know, where the wall was, it was a big club there?
Brub Baird: Breck's Mill.
Mrs. Lloyd: It's still there.
Anna Baird Lloyd: I know they used to have dances there and we would go there. Somebody come in and hollar, "Hey Gretch, here's you old man, you better beat it." And he'd come in one door, we were out the other. [laughs] He would ask if we'd been there. Somebody would come in and hollar, "Hey Baird, here comes your old man." And out we'd go. You know, he didn't believe in dancing.
Johnson: Oh, he didn't approve of the dancing?
Anna Baird Lloyd: He didn't believe in nothing like that. He believed in setting home on Sunday, either reading the Bible or you didn't do nothing. See when we lived in Charles' Banks, we had chickens and pigs up there. We had a big place in Charles' Banks, we had our own chickens and own pigs.
Brub Baird: Where was Charles' Banks in reference to ChiCken Alley?
Anna Baird Lloyd: Well, Chicken Alley was right above us, that was all Charles' Banks. You know where Free Park is, is that still there?
Anna Baird Lloyd: There was an Episcopal church, well that's where all the du Pont's used to go, Christ Church. And wasn't a cemetery there too, cause there's a lot of them buried in there.
Betty DeNight: Yeah, that's where the du Pont's are buried, yeah in the old cemetery.
Anna Baird Lloyd: I know that. Well, Free Park coming in from Charles Banks. See there was Boat Row and Squirrel Run.
Brub Baird: Well you were around the swinging bridge?
Anna Baird Lloyd: Yeah, near the swinging bridge, yeah - was a bridge right - well that was up near Rockland. We were halfway between the swinging bridge and Rockland.
Brub Baird: Well, when you were a kid, did Crowninshield have those hanging gardens along the creek there?
Anna Baird Lloyd: Yeah, Crowninshield.
Mrs. Lloyd: Which side of the creek were you on, were you on...
Anna Baird Lloyd: We were on this side of the creek, the same side that Betty's mother lived on, we were on that side. 'Cause Hodgson - it used to be Barlow Mill, and then they sold out to Dan Hodgson.
Brub Baird: You were on the same side as Dean?
Anna Baird Lloyd: Yeah, yeah.
Brub Baird: Crowninshield and Dean - that was Charles'...
Anna Baird Lloyd: See, we were between Rising Sun Lane and Breck's Lane, and then there was Barley Mill Lane.
Brub Baird: Well, there was - Hagley Museum is, and then there was Flea Park, and then Charles' Banks?
Anna Baird Lloyd: Yeah, yeah.
Brub Baird: Well Charles' Banks was just on the other side of Flea Park.
Anna Baird Lloyd: It was between Rockland and Free Park, yeah. But to get to school, we had to go through a woods and over a run. Many a time I fell in the run and had to stay in school with wet clothes on, wet shoes.
Johnson: Oh my goodness. Did you know Jenny Thompson?
Anna Baird Lloyd: Yeah, I know Jenny Thompson.
Johnson: When you lived in Charles' Banks - she became Jenny Toomey then, right.
Anna Baird Lloyd: I know Toomey. I'll tell you the way the houses were. First house was Pete Besue, there were twins there, Pete Besue, and then come London, you know London, he was our paperboy. Well then there was a place between just like these two yards would be together, and then come Thompson's and then come Conley, you know he's a barber. Well he married a Clark and she died and of course Virgie Montgomery married one of the Clark boys and her husband died, and Conley's wife died but she still stayed there and raised Conley's children, but she never got married. You know, Conley who used to be the barber.
Well then there was another big space between and we had a big yard and my Father had that all planted, you know, we had a big yard. And then we had that springhouse where nobody else did, you know, where the water run all around, that's where we kept everything, yeah.
And then there was this big open space was our yard, well then the next house was Hilda Workman and she married a man by the name - I'll know it after a bit. Well she lived next to us, and then there was another big space and then your Aunt Mame lived there - Toner's you know.
Betty DeNight: Oh, I thought they lived on the top of Rising Sun.
Anna Baird Lloyd: No, wait, she lived there first, that's where he died, Toner died. And then when they moved up on top of the Rock - we used to live on top of that Rock before we moved down below. Our house was built on top of a rock.
Brub Baird: When did you live across from Simon Dorman?
Anna Baird Lloyd: Well after we left on the Rock, you know that rock - they tore them houses down?
Brub Baird: Yeah, well that was up in back of Blakeley's, wasn't it?
Anna Baird Lloyd: Yeah, Jeff Blakeley, and then the railroad run there, the B. & amp; O. Railroad down to Bancroft's. And then there was a big rock there, and that's where the fellows used to buy a kettle of beer. They'd go to Jeff Blakeley's and get a bucket of beer for a dime. You know we had a porch and we'd keep the water buckets outside, and they'd steal water buckets just for beer. [laughter from everyone] And my Mother had that orange rug, you know, and she would get out there and hollar at them, but that didn't do no good.
- Her mother being a midwife for the community; the large packing house explosion at Hagley in 1915 that killed her brother; group discussion of other relatives; identifying location of stone wall between Breck's Mill and Hagley Yard gatesKeywords: Baptism; Breck's Lane; explosions; Industrial accidents; Midwives; Silverbook Cemetery (Wilmington, Del.)Transcript: Brub Baird: Well, we were talking about Grandmom being a midwife when we were...
Anna Baird Lloyd: Oh yes, she went out nursing all hours of the night. Said "Here I go again." She delivered the babies before the doctor got there.
Johnson: And could you tell me what her name was?
Anna Baird Lloyd: Her name was Elizabeth Baird, but her maiden name was Short.
Johnson: And then your maiden name was Baird?
Anna Baird Lloyd: Yes.
Johnson: And then your married name?
Anna Baird Lloyd: Married a Lloyd.
Johnson: And what was your husband's name?
Anna Baird Lloyd: Frank.
Johnson: Frank Lloyd. And what did he...
Anna Baird Lloyd: Frank Orin - wasn't that a funny name?
Mrs. Lloyd: Frank what?
Anna Baird Lloyd: Frank Orin - O-R-I-N.
Mrs. Lloyd: I've heard it, I've heard it before.
Johnson: What was his connection with the Company, did he work for the powder yards?
Anna Baird Lloyd: Well he worked there for a while - he worked there during the World War [I], that's when my brother was killed - World War I, and I think your Uncle Bill worked there at the same time, because him and Poppy just left there not too long before that, the mill went up. And my Father left there about twenty minutes after that and he said when he heard that crack, he said, "Oh there's the boys." And there were 32 boys killed at that time, you know.
Brub Baird: Well how about - what happened to Jamsey's arm, didn't he have his arms caught in something in Bancroft's.
Anna Baird Lloyd: He got that in Bancroft's, yeah. Then he went to work in the powder mill making the little pellets, you know?
Brub Baird: Well he got blown up in that one - did he get blown up in the one where the 32 or something?
Anna Baird Lloyd: He was blown up - 32, yeah, he was one of the 32, so was his boy friend. I got a picture of him and his boy friend. His boy friend's name was Sammy Davis. And he was killed, too.
Mrs. Lloyd: What year was that in, Aunt Annie?
Anna Baird Lloyd: Well, it was World War I.
Mrs. Lloyd: Oh, okay, so it would be '18 or '19.
Brub Baird: Probably 1917 or '16 '17.
Anna Baird Lloyd: 1917, '16, yeah. It was right after - yeah, 1917, 1918 it went up, right before the war ended - 32 boys, all making pellets. And they're all buried - his name is on our stone at the cemetery, but he's not buried there. But my Father wanted the name put on there you know, so they put his name with the rest of them.
Mrs. Lloyd: Oh, they never found him?
Anna Baird Lloyd: Oh, they were all blowed to pieces. They were climbing trees and taking flesh off the trees and clothes and everything. They put it all in one box and buried it in Riverview ain't it, or Silverbrook - Silverbook, they're all out Silverbrook. Just one big grave, their names is all on there.
William Lloyd: Yeah, they have one big tombstone there where they're all on there.
Anna Baird Lloyd: But his name, I don't think, is on that one. But Susie always went out there with a wreath at Christmas-time and Easter and everything. But his name's on our stone because my Father wanted his name there whether he was buried there or not. See we're on that main line going up to church, up to Green Hill Church, we're right on the main road.
Mrs. Lloyd: You can tell me, do you know if Gordy was ever baptized?
Anna Baird Lloyd: No I don't.
Mrs. Lloyd: They couldn't find a record in Christ Church.
Anna Baird Lloyd: No I don't think you were, I don't think you were.
Mrs. Lloyd: I've got to get you christened.
Brub Baird: Gad, I've been baptized so many times. [laughter] I was confirmed or something at Christ Church...
Anna Baird Lloyd: If my Father had anything to do with it you would be [laughs]. I know one time they were christening babies, you know, and my brother was setting next to me, your father set next to me and pinches me and I went "Ouch," and my Father got a spoke and Frank and put Willie on one side and me on the other. I hollared "Ouch" right out loud [everyone laughs].
Well you know that big - before you go into the church, there's a big monument there and there's railing all around it, I guess the railing is still on there, because we had ours taken down, 'cause a man come here for me to sign a paper to get the railing down because they can get the, you know, clean the graves off easier.
Brub Baird: When did Daddy, did he take care of the playground on top of Breck's Lane? Was that before he worked in the powder mills?
Anna Baird Lloyd: Yeah, yeah, he was young then when he done that, took care of the playground, yeah.
Mrs. Lloyd: Do you remember, do you know how Gordy's grandfather Toner died?
Anna Baird Lloyd: You mean Grandpop Lloyd?
Mrs. Lloyd: No, Toner, Sadie's father.
Anna Baird Lloyd: Oh, Sadie's father. No I don't know, but I know he lived next door to my Aunt Lizzie, you know, 'cause she had three children - Isabelle, Willie and Lillian and they're all dead. See, Neeney, he was a brother to my Father. And then come us and then come - oh no, Hilda Workman's, she married a man by the name of...
William Lloyd: Ask her if she recognizes any of them, Bett.
Brub Baird: Bert was telling Neeney got stoned to death, Aunt.
Anna Baird Lloyd: He did.
Brub Baird: I never knew that, he was a watchman somewhere and the kids hit him with a stone and killed him.
Anna Baird Lloyd: Yeah, they stoned him to death. Him with a stone and killed him.
Mrs. Lloyd: Was that around Wilmington or...
Anna Baird Lloyd: Yeah!
Brub Baird: He was watching somewhere of construction.
Anna Baird Lloyd: Construction workers, yeah.
Betty DeNight: Did he work in the powder yard?
Anna Baird Lloyd: Yeah, he worked there, they all worked for DuPont's.
Betty DeNight: We still do. Do you know any on here [shows a photograph].
Anna Baird Lloyd: I know that face.
William Lloyd: There's writing on the back of that, but I don't know how accurate that writing is. That was Mother's, Mother had that on there.
Mrs. Lloyd: Grandmother of Sarah Lloyd.
Anna Baird Lloyd: Oh, that's Billy Flemming's mother. You know, the one your aunt married, Flemming.
Mrs. Lloyd: Oh, Irene Flemming.
Anna Baird Lloyd: Irene Flemming's grandmother.
Mrs. Lloyd: Oh, that's her grandmother?
Anna Baird Lloyd: That was her grand - no, it was her mother's grandmother.
Mrs. Lloyd: No, her mother was first - Irene's mother was first married to Toner, and then she married Flemming.
Anna Baird Lloyd: Toner - then she married Flemming. When she lived next to us up on the hill, that's when she married Flemming, see she lived next door to my Uncle Neeney and Aunt Lizzie down there where the two houses, you know. Ed Harold, I know all the workmen, She married Ed Harold.
Mrs. Lloyd: Yeah, yeah, Harold, we remember.
Anna Baird Lloyd: Yeah, that's who she married. Well then there was another big woods and then the run, you know they had that bridge over the main road you know, there was a run underneath it. Well then there were two more houses after - there was Hilda Workman, there was your aunt and then there was my uncle and then you know there was a shoemaker, you had to down the steps. They rented their shed out to a shoemaker. Well then there was a woods and then there was this big Hagley house, the big, you know, building. And then there was a stone wall from there clean up to the Hagley Yard gate, you know the big - is it still there?
[Several voices talking at once.]
You know where the mill is? Well from there there was a big stone wall because when the creek come up it used to go in them houses, and they put a wall there that it wouldn't come up. And then the gate going into Hagley Yard was right there.
Brub Baird: Yeah, that's still there.
Anna Baird Lloyd: Is that gate still there?
Brub Baird: Yeah.
Anna Baird Lloyd: That was Hagley Yard, and then I think there was another gate at Free Park. You went down that road, there was another gate there.
[Looking at more pictures and several people talking at one time.]
William Lloyd: Look on the back, she's got a name on there.
Brub Baird: Yeah, here's Chicken Alley.
Betty DeNight: She's got Babbett's on there.
Anna Baird Lloyd: Yeah, that's who it was, Babbett's. We called him Babbett's, nobody got the right name out there. My husband got Steeplejack.
Mrs. Lloyd: That's Sadie's father?
Anna Baird Lloyd: Yeah
Mrs. Lloyd: And Aunt Ellie died, we can't find anybody knows...
Betty DeNight: Uncle Will lived with Aunt Mame, didn't he?
Brub Baird: Yeah, my aunt lived right here, Flea Park.
Betty DeNight: See if she knows any of the men in that picture. [crosstalk]
Brub Baird: Do you know them people, Aunt Annie?
Mrs. Lloyd: Oh, this is Grandmother Gordon, that one is Grandmother Gordon.
Anna Baird Lloyd: Yeah, yeah.
Mrs. Lloyd: Okay - that's your great-grandmother. Grandmother Gordon, that's your grandmother's mother.
Brub Baird: Is that who it was?
Mrs. Lloyd: Boy, she looks like a tough old lady.
Anna Baird Lloyd: You know Gordie, I think this was taken up at the place up at Free Park.
Johnson: I'm glad to hear you say that, because someone else identified that as Free Park on the cover.
Brub Baird: Love you to look at that picture that we were telling you about, the men William [had at one time?].
Anna Baird Lloyd: No, I don't know none of them, maybe I would.
Johnson: The Museum is giving you that book to keep. The Museum wants you to keep that book, so if you'd like to look through it afterwards and then maybe you can see somebody there and we can come back and then talk to you again.
Brub Baird: I got - if you knew any of these, Aunt Annie.
Mrs. Lloyd: She doesn't want her to look at it now, Brub.
Johnson: It's alright if she does, that's alright.
Brub Baird: Let me get this picture here, see if you knew any of these people.
- Her father driving a wagon for DuPont Co.; the Kennett Pike toll gate; her father and mother's history in Ireland; her nine siblings; discussion of her siblings' descendants; laundry and hot water while living in Henry ClayKeywords: bathing; hot water back; immigrants; immigration; Influenza Epidemic (1918-1919); Joseph Bancroft and Sons Co.; laundry; meat wagons; Starch; Stoves; toll roads; truckers' unionTranscript: Johnson: Could you tell me, first, whether your father worked for the powder yards.
Anna Baird Lloyd: Yeah, he drove a team of horses. And then you know, they didn't have - they had rubber tires on their wheels 'cause they had to go through and you know if they had them other wagon wheels, you know they would start a spark and set the mills afire and they had rubber tires on their horses. There were four horses to a wagon, and he used to drive that through the yards.
Johnson: Did he drive the powder, carry the powder?
Anna Baird Lloyd: Yes. And those stables were up near Free Park, up there, they had a stable up there and they used to have to go up there from where we lived to feed them on Sundays 'cause there was nobody there to feed the horses. See, and he had to go feed his horses.
Johnson: Did you ever get to play with the horses?
Anna Baird Lloyd: No, no we never played with it - them horses, they wasn't tame.
Johnson: Were you ever allowed in the powder yards as a child?
Anna Baird Lloyd: No. We never was allowed in there 'cause there was always watchmen at the gate. And you know, I remember toll gate up at the top of Breck's Lane. Used to be a toll gate up there, you paid toll.
William Lloyd: You know, Aunt Annie, somebody had a picture of that toll gate and they showed it to me and I can't remember who had the picture.
Anna Baird Lloyd: People by the name of Evans run that toll gate. When you went by in a horse and buggy, you paid toll. Was up at the top of Breck's Lane.
William Lloyd: I can't remember who it was.
Betty DeNight: I can't remember the toll gate.
Anna Baird Lloyd: I remember it - we used to have to walk from Charles' Banks to Green Hill, and you know how far that was. And Sunday School took in at nine o'clock in the morning. We had to leave the house about half past seven to get to Sunday School nine o'clock in the morning.
Johnson: By any chance do you remember when your father was born?
Anna Baird Lloyd: No, he was born in Ireland.
Johnson: Okay, do you know what part of Ireland?
Anna Baird Lloyd: Yes I do.
Anna Baird Lloyd: Donegal. We used to write letters over there. Here is the address, I still remember it. [Lloyd?] County, [Ballycranser?], Donegal, Ireland. [Lloyd?] County, [Ballycranser?], Donegal, Ireland. 'Cause we used to write over there to her brothers, you know, she still had a brother. I still got relatives over there.
Johnson: Now how about your mother, did she come from Ireland, too?
Anna Baird Lloyd: Well my Mother was born in Scotland, but she was raised over in Ireland. She went over there as a baby, she didn't know nothing much about Scotland.
Johnson: Do you know why they came to this country, were they recruited, or did they just come?
Anna Baird Lloyd: No, my Father had a cousin by the name of Connefy, Connefy, wasn't that a funny name, he lived in Darby. And he brought them over here, my Mother and Father come over here as a bride. They left Ireland and never went back. And his cousin brought him over here and Maggie and my oldest brother were born in Darby, they wasn't born in Delaware.
Brub Baird: Do you know any of them Aunt Annie?
Anna Baird Lloyd: Yeah I know their faces, but I forget their names.
Johnson: We're looking at Page 57. Do you remember hearing your parents say that they liked it in this country, or did they miss Ireland, or did they ever discuss it?
Anna Baird Lloyd: No, they never wanted to go back to Ireland, they liked it in this country. All of us kids was born here, ten of us.
Johnson: Oh, they had ten children?
Anna Baird Lloyd: I'm the only one living out of ten.
Johnson: Do you know the names...
Anna Baird Lloyd: I had four brothers and six sisters. Susie and Elsie were twins, you know. And then Rebecca died - you know during World War I there was an epidemic of the flu, every house out that creek had somebody dead. And I think that's when Turner died - Toner died, I won't say for sure, during the epidemic.
Brub Baird: About how many kids were there, you say there was six girls and four boys?
Anna Baird Lloyd: Yeah, there was Sammy, there was Jamesey, there was Willie and there's Joe. And then there was Rebecca, first there was Maggie and then me and then Rebecca and Susie and Elsie, were twins, and Emily, they were the six girls. Emily died as a baby and Sammy died when he was seven years old, he was the oldest.
Mrs. Lloyd: Would it be out of line to ask you how old you are now?
Anna Baird Lloyd: How old - I'll be 96 in October, October the 8th I'll be 96.
Mrs. Lloyd: Oh wow, when you reach a hundred we'll have a wild party, we'll all be here.
Anna Baird Lloyd: Yeah, I'll be 96. I got a better memory than my daughter, she'll take her girdle off and she'll forget where she laid it and I'll say, "You put it up in the parlor." [Everyone laughs] She'll be here, she's trying to reduce, she's away in a swimming club, and this is her day to go, she's trying to get the weight off. Doctor told her to lose weight. I told her she'll never lose weight, she's eating all my ice cream up. I'm supposed to eat a dipper of ice cream a day, see, and sometimes I go out there.
Mrs. Lloyd: Your birthday's in October?
Anna Baird Lloyd: October the 8th, and Willie's would have been October the 9th, Willie, yeah, we're both in October.
Johnson: How many of your brothers worked for DuPont?
Anna Baird Lloyd: Well, Jamesey and - Willie worked for, your father worked for them for a while, but not too long, then he went on the police force, and James, he was the one who was killed. My brother, Joe, never worked for them, he always drove a - he belonged to that truckers' union and always drove a big trailer truck, Joe did.
And I remember every house pretty near out that creek, used to be Italian people lived up there up near the railroad, you know, and they'd come down, she couldn't speak English, you know, and her boy was killed in that, you know, and I said, "So is my brother." Every house down there.
Brub Baird: Well Daddy worked for - didn't he work with Gilson for a while as a butcher?
Anna Baird Lloyd: Yeah, yeah he worked for a butcher for a while, went around in the meat wagon. It come to the door and you'd go out and buy the meat and they'd chop it, yeah, he worked for - he used to be at butcher.
Mrs. Lloyd: Aunt Annie, the cheapest house in Rockland today, I think, is $250,000.
Anna Baird Lloyd: Then Poppie got a job down at Bancroft's, you know, and you couldn't get a house down there unless you worked for them, and he got a house down there. This was after the Depression, and he got this job down in Bancroft's, and we moved to St. Helena Road down in Bancroft, you know, I guess it's still there, and that's where Francis, she wasn't born there, she was born in the homeopathic hospital and it ain't there no more, they done away with it, didn't they. Well that's where Francis was born. Well I lived in St. Helena Road when she was born.
Brub Baird: Is that right, I'll be darned.
Anna Baird Lloyd: Yeah, 'cause I was working down Bancroft's at the time too, 'cause I worked there on one of them folding machines.
Brub Baird: Well, you only one child too, didn't you?
Anna Baird Lloyd: Yes, I had one miss, too.
Brub Baird: We were all one-child families.
Anna Baird Lloyd: Yeah, all but Virginia, she had five, and poor little Beth, she's gonna have four, you know.
Mrs. Lloyd: Is she gonna have another one?
Anna Baird Lloyd: Yeah, there's her picture there, that's it, she sent me that down - that's her and the twins and the little girl.
Brub Baird: Betty and I only had one and it was a girl, a daughter. Joe only had one and that was a daughter. Bertha...
Anna Baird Lloyd: She's got one.
Brub Baird: ...only had one, it was a girl, [Olga?] only had one and he was a boy.
Anna Baird Lloyd: Well Virginia had four girls and one boy, you know, and they're all married and she's a grandmother of 24 and she ain't 65 yet.
Brub Baird: Well is there any of our string of Bairds left except me?
Anna Baird Lloyd: No, you're the only one.
Brub Baird: I'm the last with the Baird name.
Anna Baird Lloyd: Well somebody told me that Bobby changed his name to Baird, I don't know.
Brub Baird: Bobby who?
Anna Baird Lloyd: Bobby Powell, that was Charlotte's son, Joe's daughter's son.
Brub Baird: Oh, did Charlotte have a boy?
Anna Baird Lloyd: Yeah, yeah.
Brub Baird: Oh, I didn't know she had one.
Anna Baird Lloyd: Yeah, yeah, but he lives in Florida, he's an old bachelor. And Joe raised him, you know, Joe and May and somebody told me that he changed his name, I don't know, to Baird.
Brub Baird: To Baird, is that right?
Anna Baird Lloyd: Now I don't know, that's what we heard.
Brub Baird: So Charlotte had a boy, then.
Anna Baird Lloyd: Yeah.
Brub Baird: But he's, well I don't know what Charlotte's husband...
Anna Baird Lloyd: Powell.
Brub Baird: Powell?
Anna Baird Lloyd: Yeah, Bobby Powell. But he lives in Florida, he lives in Fort Lauderdale.
Brub Baird: I thought that when I went that I'd be the last one with the Baird name of our string of Bairds.
Anna Baird Lloyd: And one - Virginia's daughter, the one in Texas, she's got four. And the one in St. Louis, Beverly, she's got three, she's got two girls and one boy, and the one in Texas, she's got three boys and one girl, and Valerie's just got the one, and Wayne's got one and Debra, she's got three.
Johnson: I wanted to ask you some things about you childhood, if you remember them. They wanted to know something about the weekly routine and what some of your chores were at home when you lived at Charles' Banks or later on when you moved down to Henry Clay. Do you remember anything about cleaning the houses?
Anna Baird Lloyd: Yeah, we had to clean! And we washed on a washboard too, big washings, and you had to change your sheets every week, didn't leave them go two weeks.
Johnson: Did you hang them all outdoors?
Anna Baird Lloyd: Hang them all outdoors, we had no dryers or nothing, and we had to carry water up the hill. The only thing is, my Mother had a stove with a hot water back and that's where we got our hot water. You know it was eight plates on it, one was a water back, and that was all full of water all the time.
William Lloyd: We had one of them.
Anna Baird Lloyd: Yeah, and when we wanted a bath, we got a bath in a tin tub out in the shed.
William Lloyd: That's what we got.
Johnson: Did you have to heat that water on the stove?
Anna Baird Lloyd: Yeah, we had to carry the hot water out and then we had a spring down below us, we used to have to carry the water uphill in the water buckets. We had it hard, I'm telling you. And you didn't have drip drys, you had to starch everything, even starched the pillowcases. And then you didn't have the fancy irons, you had one of them old iron things that you had to have a handle - hot plates, yeah.
Brub Baird: Stick it on the stove.
Anna Baird Lloyd: And then towards the last, we got some kind of things you had a wooden handle to them, you stuck them on the irons. But the other ones, we had big irons, you know, we used to have a hot plate to grab them and iron them with, and then you put them back on the stove and get a hot one off...