Interview with Catherine Hackendorn Sheldrick, 1984 March 6 [audio]
- Remembering people who lived on the BrandywinePartial Transcript: Sheldrick: I hardly know what. Now this goes in here, I'm sure, because what you can see here -- This is Tower Hill athletic field there. This was all grapevine in here. This is Lammot du Pont's house. Lammot du Pont lived here. Now wait a minute. See that's the reason I don't want to go on tape because it takes so long. Now wait until I find. It should be up here. Here's where Lammot du Pont lived. Then he built this house and moved from here to here. And John Raskob – Bill Raskob bought this. This is Alexis I. du Pont School, So this is along the Kennett Pike, and this is where you go in. This was our house here. Well, then, you went up back here, on up around here and around and on up to the top of Rising Sun Hill which would be here because this is 19th Street here and that would be the top of Rising Sun Hill.
Bennett: What's this?
Sheldrick: That is-- See, the Copeland estate -- Lammot DuPont Copeland's mother lived here. Well, this was the railroad in to Hagley and then it came through here and over in to New Bridge and on down in to Bancroft’ s. This is the old covered bridge at the bottom of Rising Sun Lane, But, he took this from the tower and I guess that was the best he could do. Now then, the trolley car ran along here, on up -- this is Breck's Mill -- on up to -- Now see, Hagley is down here, down at the bottom of this hill. This is the old record building and they have built more to it, This is where we used to call it the pulp keg. They made kegs to hold the gunpowder. Pull a chair over and never stand when you can sit. This is the old du Pont Gunning Club. That was built during the First World War. Before the First World War. During the First World War, this family came up from Washington and they lived in that old building here. Then they tore this building down and built-and new country club up on Rockland Road.
Bennett: Do you remember the name of the family?
Sheldrick: Bateman. My girlfriend married one of the boys. There were two boy, so she married one of them. The father was Joe Bateman and the mother was Sarah Oh, we used to have a grand time up there. It was a great big room, cold in the wintertime. And we'd start a fire. Mrs. Bateman would let us do whatever we wanted. Didn't make any difference what it was. We used to start a fire and your face would be roasting and your back would be freezing. They had oil burners, you know, to heat it. Now, look, All this is torn down. This is the Kindbeiter house. All this is gone. These are all gone, This is where Maddie lived. You know the little lady you said sewed.
Sheldrick: That's where she lived, right on the corner. Then there was space between these houses here. These are gone. This is Breck's Mill. These houses -- Maddie's block is still there. These houses are gone. All of these have been torn down. This is what we used to call Long Row. Now this is all down. And this is Christopher's house along the Crick above Breck's Mill. This is the other side of the Crick. That's where Jennie Toomey lived. And Ella Fitzharris lived alongside her whose father worked for DuPont. Now these houses are gone. And all that. Now, in back of Breck's Mill, along the back between Breck's Mill and the wall, there was a building in there we called the laboratory. Now what it was, I was a little girl when it burned down. I was telling my sister about it, I can remember my mother -- There were houses in here. There were a family lived there. Their name was Tarkin. And I can remember going down there with my grandmother and Mrs. Tarkin and her son and her daughter and we walked over to see the ruin so don't know what date that fire was. And I, I might have been five. I'll find out for you.
Bennett: That couldn't have been Rokeby?
Sheldrick: I don't know where Rokeby was. It could have been -- Now this is Breck's Lane. These houses are gone. Godfreys lived here. Dormans lived there. And there used to be a family lived there. Their name was Daugherty. And there were two maiden ladies lived in that house after the rest of the family had gone. There were quite a family of them at one time, but there were two of them. And I'm not sure, but I think her name was Katie but the other one was Peggy. Now, between here -- this is Breck's Lane -- between here and Christopher's house -- there were two houses then this side of Christopher's house and between here and here, I think was the Rokeby Mill and Sam Frizzell's store. I'm not positive, but it seems to me that's where it was, These houses are gone and all of these, There's nothing on Long Row between Breck's Mill and Barley Mill Road which would be up here, So that would leave these houses gone, too. Now Callahans and Seitz's lived in here. This is Barley Mill Road coming down here. You could never get all this on tape, This is along the Crick, This is Breck's Lane and then you come down, This is between Rising Sun Lane and Breck's Lane. Now right here on this side of the road was Harry Gregg's store and the trolley car came out of town. It would extend down like here, You walk around to the trolley car that came along here. You can see the tracks here and on up here. And then Mrs. Copeland built that. We call that the tunnel, And that was built during the First World War. There were a lot -- she claimed the smoke from the train, But at that time there was a lot of -- Bancroft was running --
Bennett: Yeah, smoke.
Sheldrick: Everything was shift work then. And then on to Hagley, And this is another story I remember, My grandmother -- See, we lived here; then my grandmother. Then my grandmother used to tell us -- and my mother, too. That they would come up here to New Bridge and wait for the train. And the train would come down here and through the tunnel to New Bridge or it would shift over and go up in to Hagley and go across this bridge on down in to Hagley and then it would shift back again and pick the people up at New Bridge which would be around here at the end of the tunnel and then it would go up -- see you can see the tracks here. Well, then it would go up that way to what we called the Junction, And then it would go into town and then it would go into town in the morning -- grandma used to say -- what time, I wouldn't know, Then it would come back in the afternoon, Later on, the train would come out of town and go all the way to Reading.
Bennett: Reading, Pennsylvania?
Sheldrick: Yes. And I remember -- now, this was my mother's sister. Now, she was stationed in Reading at one time and I can remember going up on this train to see her. It was a local and it stopped everywhere. Granogue, all the way up to Lenape -- on up.
Bennett: How long did it take to get to Reading?
Sheldrick: Oh, pretty near all day. Then we would stay overnight.
Bennett: And then we'd come home the next day. That was really quite an excursion, you know, and I know why my grandmother took me, because I was the oldest, you see. The oldest of the girls and I was company for her. But I can remember riding on this train and it would be so close to the Brandywine, I'd lean over and the bushes were right in the windows. Now, isn't that something? Then this was the Copeland Estate; this was Laird's. This was William K. du Pont's.
Bennett: This is Laird's and this is William K's?
Sheldrick: Yes. This is William K. du Pont's. I'll have to think who that is. No. This is Laird's and then on up here and that was Victor du Pont's. He lived up there at this time. That's du Pont School. Here's St. Joseph's Church. This is all gone. And these houses through here are all gone and you can see just part of Freel's house. There were a little girl used to go around with us. Her name was Mary Freel.Synopsis:Keywords: Bancroft's Mill; Breck's Mill; Copeland, Lammot du Pont, 1905-1983; Du Pont, Lammot, 1880-1952; Railroads; Raskob, John J., 1879-1950; Reading (Pa.); Rising Sun Hill; Rising Sun Lane; Sam Frizzell's store; Street-railroads
- Looking at old photos; Photographers based in Wilmington, Delaware; Identifying people in photographs from "The Workers' World at Hagley" by Glenn PorterPartial Transcript: Sheldrick: Now do you know who that is?
Bennett: You had long curls.
Sheldrick: Well, they weren't exactly curls. My mother done the best she could. They weren't curls by a long shot.
Bennett: Did Frank Gentieu take the pictures?
Sheldrick: Oh, no. And this Holland took -- this is my mother. And this is my father. And this is my Aunt Mame and her husband and her father-in-law. And I have another one and do you think I can find it -- with Aunt Mame's husband and they only have one little girl here. They had two little girls. And my mother used to say that every time Uncle Ed went out he had the girls’ pictures taken. And this was my mother. She was very pretty. And, oh, her personality. Now, look. I don't know how old this is. Now, this is me.
Bennett: You always were laughing, I can see.
Sheldrick: And they are all gone but me, every one of them.
Bennett: I'll be 63. And all of my friends -- can you believe -- that I went to high school with are gone. I'm the last at the age of 63 -- at 60.
Sheldrick: Now, this is my granddaughter. Now there is a pretty girl. She will be 16 the 23rd and she looks twenty, doesn't she?
Bennett: The 23rd of March?
Bennett: Well, I'm going to be sixty-three on the 23rd of March.
Sheldrick: Your birthday is the same as hers?
Bennett: That's when your daughter died, also?
Sheldrick: Yes. And this is Marianne. This we called the doughboy. His father had a bake shop. I'd always say to her, "Well, Marianne, how's the doughboy?" A good looking little fellow. Now that's her freshman dance. But this is her senior prom. And this is my grandson. She's a monkey. Did you ever know a monkey? A beautiful little girl.
Bennett: Now this is the grandson whose picture is over there? Where do they live?
Sheldrick: They live in Stephensville, Maryland. I had a letter from Marianne. This morning. And she said something about the food -- "The food isn't any better. In fact, it's not bad; it's real bad.
Bennett: These are nice pictures.
Sheldrick: I was going to have these and I am still going to have some made for both sisters. And I have my grandmother Hackendorn's and I don't know where it is. She was pretty. She was 17 when she went to the convent. Can you imagine a girl 17 years old knowing exactly. And she was 67 years in the convent when she died.
Bennett: To know what you want at that age.
Sheldrick: And that's the time to go get it. And my grandmother used to say to me, "Now, there she is just as happy as the Lord and when she left home, I thought I'd never laugh again." This is 19th Street. This is where Harriet McDonald lived. I have put it all together but these two.
Bennett: But, I'd put it on the back, rather than cover up the picture.
Sheldrick: But she said that Father Birmingham. He was the priest at St. Joseph's at the time and my mother and sisters and Father Birmingham went over the road in the horse and carriage. And she never looked back. That broke my grandmother's heart. If she had just looked back.
Bennett: Maybe she was afraid.
Sheldrick: She could have been at 17. And I can remember my mother talking about my grandmother crying. And her cousin came out to stay with grandma until my mother would come back. My mother was not married at the time. And grandma was crying and Cathy said, "Cousin Kate, if she was marrying some old plug of a man, you'd give her a party." Weren't those people -- My cousin said they were very earthy. There were nothing she could do about it at that late date and probably wouldn't have done anything about it if she could. This has been apart for I don't know how long. It's in order, now.
Bennett: Now, your husband did this? When was it done?
Sheldrick: Oh, I don't know. 1900 -- I don't know. It should have been marked. If we knew when Tower Hill was built. See, this is the framework for Tower Hill School that's going up here. If we knew the year that this was put up…
Bennett: What is that there?
Sheldrick: See, the pedestal and everything is all finished and ready for the statue to come up from Washington. It was in Washington Circle, du Pont Circle in Washington.
Bennett: And what statue is this?
Sheldrick: The Admiral. This up here -- in the shadow -- that's the R. R. M. Carpenter Estate. I think. I'm pretty sure it is. The arrow is on St. Joseph's Church. That's Greenhill Church. This is a field now. And this house is torn down. And these are all gone. Down Rising Sun Hill. Rowes lived in that house. There were a little row of houses in here and two or three of them -- two of them are still there. Mary Towson lives in one of them and I don't know who lives in the other.
Bennett: Who was Rose? A girlfriend?
Sheldrick: No. Their name was Rowe. There were Dennis Rowe and Bill Rowe. You know, you got me thinking about things. I was thinking this Bill Rowe worked for DuPont. He was a watchman in the yards. Oh, my, he was a nice man. And he went in to punch his time clock and whatever happened, he was electrocuted. And of course, it was all shift work so the man that would relieve him -- I don't know what time -- his name was John O'Connor. And John had a brogue you could cut with a knife. And somebody was sympathizing with John. He said, "Oh, Mr. O'Connor, I'm so sorry about your buddy, Bill, being electrocuted." He said, "It could have been worse. It could have been me." You had to have a sense of humor along with those dangerous jobs. And I can remember when that happened. Everybody felt so sorry. For his wife.
Bennett: Did they have a lot of children?
Sheldrick: No, they were grown. He one son at home, but his daughter had died not too very long before that. And he had two grandchildren living with them. The grandchildren's name were Hanby. Her name was Mamie Rowe. That's what people done in those days. They took care of their own. But, we often laughed about Mr. O'Connor.
Bennett: I was hoping that you might have a picture done by Mr. Gentieu.
Sheldrick: No, I don't have anything that he has done. I knew that he took pictures.
Bennett: You never got in the house?
Sheldrick: I never got in the house. We would talk to them as we would go by. My father would talk to him. He would come down and go fishing in the Brandywine with my father. My father was a great fisherman. He fished all the time. In those days you could fish in the Brandywine. It's polluted now.
Bennett: Do you know if Mr. Gentieu sold his pictures?
Sheldrick: I don't know. But. it's my opinion for what it's worth, it was more of a hobby than anything else. Everybody knew that he did do pictures. But now, although this Holland -- He lived at Rising Sun Hill at one time. They called him Cap, short for Captain. Now why he got that, I don't know. But wasn't my mother sober? And she wasn't at all.
Bennett: And how about your dad's hairdo. He looks very young there.
Sheldrick: This was taken before they were married.
Bennett: And that was at 307 Market Street?
Sheldrick: Yes. This is 307 Holland and this is 307.
Bennett: Isn't that 307?
Bennett: They probably went together.
Sheldrick: Could have been. But one is Holland and the other is Cummings. Now they may have been together or in the one building. But, I remember along Market Street between Third to Fifth there was several. Sanborn's was along there. Cummings. Goldwhite. I'm trying to think. All photographers just in that immediate vicinity. Photography was new at that time. But, when I look at this, this was the first girl to die. Her name was Jean O'Neal. This is Lise Horty. Have you heard of the Hortys? Well, her father worked for Frank du Pont and they lived at Free Park. And that's Lise. These two girls went to the convent -- this one and this one.
Bennett: Are they sisters?
Sheldrick: Yes, sisters. This is my friend, Ann Bateman, and this is Blanche Bateman that lives in that house. But how about the hats. Wouldn't that kill you?
Bennett: They're pretty. You look like you're having fun. Was it a picnic?
Sheldrick: Oh, we had fun -- anything we ever done, we had a lot of fun. Look at this one, he's laughing at Mary. This is Mary Godfrey. Mary Godfrey was Mary Hill and she lived after she was married, she lived in this house.
Bennett: Right on the corner, across from the statue.
Sheldrick: Yes. She married this Frank Hill.Synopsis:Keywords: Du Pont, Samuel Francis, 1803-1865; Pierre Gentieu photographs; Rising Sun Lane; Saint Joseph on the Brandywine Roman Catholic Church (Wilmington, Del.)
- Identifying people in photographs from "The Workers' World at Hagley" by Glenn PorterPartial Transcript: Bennett: Is this a group from school?
Sheldrick: No, I can't remember this being taken. This is Josie Thompson and her sister is Jennie Toomey. And Jennie mailed this picture to Mary Daugherty who lived in Upper Banks -- or lived in -- why did I say Upper Banks? Monroe Park. She lived on Breck's Lane. Then, the family just dwindled down to her and she took a heart attack so her niece and nephew moved her up to Monroe Park. The doctors said she couldn't go back to that house again. And she died about two years ago. Two years ago Christmas that she died because I was down at Mary's. Then, I mailed it -- Josie's sister, Mrs. Toomey, mailed it to Mary Daugherty. Mary Daugherty mailed it to me and we couldn't figure out who this was. I mailed it to Auntie Ann in Washington. She sent it back to me and she put Katie McDade between Mary Callahan and Katie. So that's how we found out who she was. And I never could figure out who that was there. But, I think it's this one's sister.
Bennett: The pictures in the Worker's World book…
Sheldrick: Where he's situated. Is it off? Now, see, he would be one, two, three, the fourth on the back row.
Bennett: On page 57.
Sheldrick: Yes, on the back row of 57. With a mustache.
Bennett: Who is he?
Sheldrick: That is Dennis Rowe. The man was electrocuted. This was his brother. And then his name was John Gilson. And I wouldn't know him only he looks exactly – his daughter looks exactly like him. He's in the third row down, with his arms folded and a cap on. This one is Joe Schofield. I know positively that that's Joe. Right in front of Dennis Rowe really the second one to the right. With the derby on. And this is his brother, Joe. Now, what is first name is I don't know. They're Schofields. And he's on the first row, the first one with his arms folded. From left to right, he's the last one over. Then on the next row, the second row, Johnny Gilson would be the third one over. And then Joe and whatever his name is -- the Schofields. His face is awfully familiar to me, but I can't think who he is. And that is Rowe. And this man's name was Herbert Andrews. He's right next to Rowe. I don't know who this guy is, but he's certainly taking a nice rest.
Bennett: So, going towards the left, he is one over from Rowe. Next to the last and then Rowe is the last.
Sheldrick: I don't know any of these. This is the old machine shop. And this is Gene Daugherty.
Bennett: Now we are on page 50.
Sheldrick: He is in the back row, the second one from left to right. Eugene Daugherty. Of course, he's long gone. I know a story about him. This poor guy wouldn't ride in an automobile. He just would not. So, he was buried. And the funeral was coming out of town and a colored guy ran into the hearse. Now, did you ever. He was so afraid of riding. This is the Crouse family. The youngest one -- and it could be this baby -- it would be Dorothy -- and I knew John. The blonde boy on the second row. This was Bessie, on the back row, the shorter one. And one of them was Mabel, and I feel sure, but I could be wrong. This is the father and I suppose this is the mother holding the baby, but she's so much younger. This lady, I don't know who she is unless she's Mrs. Crouse.
Bennett: Did you tell me you had never seen her?
Sheldrick: I never saw Mrs. Crouse -- not to know her. I saw him lots of times and I knew John very well. Now, she is holding the baby and yet this looks not old enough to be his mother and too old to be his wife. She's neither Dick nor Richard.
Bennett: How about these. Do they look like man and wife?
Sheldrick: No. These are two boys. I knew there were another boy but I do not know his name, but I know definitely that that's John. I guess they're all gone, too. This where Josie Thompson lived. These houses are gone.
Bennett: This is what we call Walker's Mill.
Sheldrick: Yes, exactly. This she, of course, is all gone. And that's where the Thompsons lived, Mr. Thompson and his family. This is where Daugherty’ s and the Rowe’ s lived in this block in here.
Bennett: That's the same as Walker's Bank.
Bennett: Now, do you remember the Gibbons house? Gibbons, Stewart?
Sheldrick: At the bottom of the hill. Free Park. Yes, I know that but I can't remember it: But I was thinking after I was talking to you, I think there were a family -- just a man and his wife -- and I'm not sure, but I think his name was Williamson. But, her name was Buchanan before she was married. Jennie Buchanan. That lived in here.
Bennett: Were these houses there at the same time?
Sheldrick: I don't remember.
Bennett: Someday you will go over there and you'll see all that's left is this.
Sheldrick: Well, see this is just a shed.
Bennett: But, see, there are other chimneys. There was four houses, they say. Alec Burns. Do you know the name? He lived in the far end.
Sheldrick: I know that name.
Bennett: You don't know this family at all?
Bennett: The Fleming family. Is this the Fleming family?
Sheldrick: I believe so. Wait a minute.
Bennett: It doesn't say.
Sheldrick: It would be page 40 And it seemed to me that I saw and I knew the Flemings, but I couldn't pick them out here.
Bennett: Andrew Family, Squirrel Run.
Sheldrick: But, when I knew them, they lived at Wagoner's Row. And one of the girls married a man whose name was Harding. And the other one married Snyder. I don't know their names. Now wait a minute. The one that married Harding, her name was Mattie. And the one that married Snyder -- I'll think of it.
Bennett: Did you know the boys' names?
Sheldrick: There were a Bill. Only the one boy there. It seems to me there were another boy. Martha Ann, her name was. I knew that would come to me. This, of course, is Free Park. That's the Crowninshield house. This was Alfred I. du Pont and this is his band.
Bennett: Do you remember?
Sheldrick: No, I don't remember. Some things happened before my time. Now, this the old Barley Mill that burned down. I can remember them talking about that. This always reminds me of Marjorie Main -- the back of her. And this is Breck's Mill. These are children. We used to play Run, Sheepie, Run. This is the Sunday School. Alexis I. du Pont. This is the Buckley and the Jones house. This was before my time. Aren't these little girls cute? Quite a few of these stones are still there and this is the trolley car. And this is what we called the switch. And the car -- when this car hit here, the motorman got out, threw the switch and the one coming from the end of the line had to stay there until the one coming from the end of the line and this would go on up. Along here the switch was on the pole. And Pete Persue lived there who wasMaddie Ferraro's uncle. And family by the name of Lundy lived there.
Bennett: That's on page 27.
Sheldrick: Right across. And that really is a double house and they lived right across.
Bennett: How about up here?
Sheldrick: I don't know any of these. And I wondered how anybody could pose so many people and their hands --
Bennett: I think it's a fabulous picture.
Sheldrick: I remember here. This was Hunter's store here.
Bennett: Now, we're on page 26.
Sheldrick: This was Hunter's store. Then in here Mattie Fleming lived -- one of the girls in this picture lived in here and that man that I told you was John Gilson -- he lived in this end. This was three dwellings -- the store, the Flemings, Mattie Fleming Harding, and Gilson. And there was Sally Gilson and her father lived here. And Sally was the only girl and she had a brother Jim and John. Oh, she had another sister, Elizabeth. She lived in Philadelphia.
Bennett: What kind of store was it?
Sheldrick: General grocery. And anything else you wanted.
Bennett: What did they call the store?
Sheldrick: It was Hunter's. This was Hunter's Corner. And across here was a barn that had burned down.
Bennett: You have heard of the barn burnings?
Sheldrick: I don't remember those. This is Lawless' Tavern and they lived in this house and then they built a house up on the corner -- all the way up along the Kennett Pike which they lived in later.
Bennett: Were you ever in here, in the tavern?
Sheldrick: Oh, yeah. I went around with Teeny who lived there. She went to school when I did.
Bennett: Do you have any memories of the place?
Sheldrick: Just ordinary things that happen.
Bennett: Like what?
Sheldrick: Well, what usually happens. You would go in there after school -- not in the bar -- but into the house and I can remember her grandmother living with them. And the grandmother's name was Carney. And how you would go in like for a visit and all. And later years we had a bridge club and Teeny and her sister belonged to the bridge club. But, you know how kids run in and out.
Bennett: I wondered if maybe you had seen in the bar a few times.
Sheldrick: I never was in the bar. That was off limits. Now, this here. I can't remember this at all. This is Bob Blakeley's store in Squirrel Run. I have heard my grandmother talk about Bob Blakeley. Later years after -- I don't know how long -- when the Rowes -- Dennis Rowe was married and his family, they lived over here and there were nothing here. There weren't anything. From what I can gather, it was some sort of meeting room. And Rowes lived up here, Dennis Rowe and his family.
Bennett: That's on page 23.
Sheldrick: And there were quite a family of those. I may be one of those; I don't know. Or my father. We skated on the Brandywine. I have these pictures that John Alexander painted. I'll show them to you. They were small. This is the covered bridge.
Bennett: Now, what is this?
Sheldrick: This is Long Row. This is Breck's Mill. See, that's Walker's Bank. That's the woolen mill here.
Sheldrick: There's so many in here that I don't remember, it arouses my curiosity. There's Pierre's. You know, we never called him anything but Gentieu. But, a lot of people -- and among them was Father Scott who was preaching at St. Joseph's -- said his name was Chantier.
Bennett: Chantier instead of Gentieu?
Sheldrick: I don't know, but that's what he said. They say, but you never ever knew who they were.
Bennett: Just like they say "Frizzell" and "Frizzell".
Sheldrick: Well, it was always "Frizzell" until of late years and then it became "Frizzell." How that happened, I don't know. But, you see, George Frizzell was born and raised at the first house when you come down the Rising Sun Hill on your right. I don’ t know who lives in that house now. Or whether it's till there or not. Well, then he was a druggist and when they tore down along the Brandywine there were a row of -- a barber shop, and the Red Men's Hall and Frizzell's Drug Store and Dick Cavanaugh's store and his house -- they tore all those down. Then George moved to Atlantic City and opened a drug store in Atlantic City. And he had six sons and they used to come up to their grandfather's at the top of Rising Sun. They had an aunt lived with the grandfather. Tom had died and the different ones there were of them. And it left just this Manfred. And then she got married and his granddaughter who was Frances Gamble, Dan's sister Mattie. She kept house for her grandfather. And she later married Jimmy Elliott. But every time those Frizzell boys would come up from Atlantic City they came to see my mother. That didn't surprise me a bit because it seemed everybody she touched loved her. And I can remember Rowes -- their mother laughing at one of them, Samuel. She said, "Did you get to see Janie?" He said, "Yes, we went down to see Janie. And she said, "How is he?" "Mom, you'd love her; she's growing old gracefully." But George Frizzell – my mother used to say he was as good as a doctor.
Bennett: He was a pharmacist.
Sheldrick: Nice guy. Good guy. It's hard for me to remember if there were anyone that wasn't good at that time.
Bennett: You only saw the good and you were young.
Sheldrick: No. If there were any bad there, it may not show, but at the same time you were with them day in and day out, you know, and you would hear things that wasn't so. But, it's just one of those things.
Bennett: That's a good portrait.
Sheldrick: That's very good. I wonder who took this. It looks just like him. He lived to be quite old.
Sheldrick: Who did I see the other day that was 90. The actor just died. Ninety-some years old.
Bennett: William Powell.
Sheldrick: I didn't realize he was as old as that. He was quite a handsome actor.Synopsis: Sheldrick identifies people and objects appearing in "The Workers' World at Hagley" by Glenn Porter. The images she references appear on pages 23, 26, 27, 40, 50, and 57.Keywords: "The Workers' World at Hagley" by Glenn Porter; Bob Blakeley's store; Dick Cavanaugh's store; Du Pont, Alfred I. (Alfred Irenee), 1864-1935; Lawless's Tavern; Sam Frizzell's store; Tancopanican Band
- More old photographs; Swimming in the Brandywine Creek; Christmas traditions and decorationsPartial Transcript: Bennett: Would you let Hagley see those pictures?
Sheldrick: I would be happy to let them have them, but by the same token I wouldn't want anything to happen to them.
Bennett: Oh, no. I think what I'll do is tell Mr. McKelvey and I don't know that I want to be responsible.
Sheldrick: Let him have the responsibility. The only thing, it isn't so much that it means so much to me as it does that Joe made them. But, Joe loaned this to Hallock du Pont at one time and he had some copies made of it.
Bennett: Well, it's a possibility that they have it, I don't know.
Sheldrick: And you say there's one blown up.
Bennett: Yes, there's a great big one on a wall at Breck's Mill. Of this area right here. And it's just about that much. In fact, I wonder if it's not part of this. I'm not sure the covered bridge is. I'll have to look.
Sheldrick: It may be part of this because Joe loaned this to Hallock du Pont at one time. Hallock du Pont used to come up. He had chickens in back of that house and he used to come up and talk to Joe and Joe showed this one time and he asked him if he could have it. Joe said, "Yes, if you guard it with your life." And Hallock -- what shall I say -- oh, he was a good guy. No question about that. But he was proud. But, isn't everybody? You have so much pride about you. And you should. We would walk from here all the way over, through the bridge, down here and go down the side of this thing to go swimming.
Bennett: You didn't cross over?
Sheldrick: We crossed over the bridge. We went down, crossed over the bridge, down past Mattie’ s and on down and then down the side of the woolen mill. This is what we called Girlie. And right here in the middle of the crick was a great, big stone -- huge. Well, you swam out to Big Rock when you learned to swim. And you rested and you swam back.
Bennett: What did you say this was?
Sheldrick: Girlie. Well, that's where the girls went. Indian Rock was down below the bridge here. You really had to swim to go down to Indian Rock. And you very rarely got down there. And then, after you learned to swim to the Big Rock, then you would rest and swim back. Then, after you got really good, then you swam all the way across. So then, we would go down in back of -- this road ran in front of our house -- down the bank to Minnie. And you would swim all the way back. From Minnie to Girlie.
Bennett: And did you stop on the Rock to rest in the middle?
Sheldrick: Not, after you learned. You didn't stop on the Rock. Very often you couldn't get a seat on the Rock, either. All the kids in the neighborhood would go down to swim along the crick.
Bennett: What was your bathing suit like?
Sheldrick: Usually it would be an old gingham dress. Oh, dear, who had bathing suits?
Bennett: How about your legs, were they covered?
Sheldrick: Oh, no we went in bare feet.
Bennett: How about your legs?
Sheldrick: We wore panties.
Sheldrick: Oh, no. Bare legs. Bare feet. This dress and your panties. And that was it. Then you'd pick up the dress and make a great big bubble and you'd float around in the water. You missed an awful lot. It was fun. But a lot of sadness, too, you know. But you took the bitter with the better.
Bennett: So, that's Girlie. That's really right in front of Walker's Bank.
Sheldrick: Right alongside of Walker's. This is the side of Walker's Mill.
Bennett: Closest to the bridge.
Sheldrick: And this is Minnie. Where they ever got the name of Minnie, I don't know.
Bennett: The next time I go by there I'm going to have a better look to see if I can find Girlie.
Sheldrick: See, that's all changed. My grandmother lived in this end house here, and as you were going out of mine, you would go into her house and you would look out the window and watch the car make the turn here. See how that turns there. Well, it would turn there. When you saw that, you went out and got on the trolley.
Bennett: Whose house is that?
Sheldrick: That's Rokeby. The lady that lived there was Miss Mary du Pont. And the picture was made before – after Alfred I. -- his homestead -- you know where he was born and raised -- Swamp Hall.
Bennett: Swamp Hall.
Sheldrick: Swamp Hill -- or Swamp Hall. I can remember when they tore that house down. We were young kids.
Bennett: How close to the road was it?
Sheldrick: It wasn't too far from the road, maybe about a quarter of a block.
Bennett: I think I might see some foundation or stones and I think I've got the right spot picked out, but I'm not sure.
Sheldrick: I can remember it well. We came down -- when we went to school, we went up alongside these houses here and through this field you can almost see the path and then we would come out on Barley Mill Road and then up Barley Mill Road.
Bennett: It was quite a walk.
Bennett: What shall we talk about now?
Sheldrick: That's up to you. I don't know too much more.
Bennett: I brought you an empty box.
Sheldrick: Oh, for the -- I know why, and it looks just like it, don't it? Well, it's in that drawer. Now, we'll put it away.
Bennett: Now, we'll talk about it.
Sheldrick: I don't know too much.
Bennett: Do you mind if I get it out? See, I even know where things are in your house.
Sheldrick: That's it. I couldn't tell you whether it came on the cookie or whether it was made --
Bennett: That was going to be my question. The tape recorder doesn't realize that we're discussing it.
Sheldrick: It may have came on the cookie. You know, came with the cookie. It had to come with the cookie.
Bennett: That's what we wondered -- if you made the gingerbread, put that on top and cut around it, because to have a perfect mold, you couldn't do it.
Sheldrick: No, you couldn't do it.
Bennett: And look here, you've got a little --
Sheldrick: No, that doesn't belong on that. I don't know how that got in there. But, you see, I don't know. It can't fall apart any more than it has. But it kept well.
Bennett: Yes, and see, it's paper. But, we wondered if maybe you had made the cookies.
Sheldrick: Oh, not. I didn't. I think it was either -- I don't know who. The only thing I know was that we got it at Christmas and I’ ll tell you what I had for a long time and I don't know what ever happened to it. It was a little heart shaped box about like this and it had a lady's picture – - face -- painted on it and it was blue satin. And it was filled -- only about four or five Jordan almonds in it. I got that in my stocking. And I had that box for a long time. I guess it fell apart. I have an old fan upstairs. If I just knew where it was. It's in the box it came in and believe it or not, the box is held together with a rubber band.
Bennett: I see this differently than I did the other day. I pictured that the cookie was the exact shape of Santa. But it's not. It's more of a rectangle and he's glued on. There he is and I think Hagley would like to see it sometime. He was a pretty Santa Claus.
Sheldrick: If. You can't harm it any more than it is. If you want to take it with you, you're certainly welcome. But, don't eat it.
Bennett: I don't think I will.
Sheldrick: I don't know how old that is. I have no idea.
Bennett: There must be a reason why you saved it.
Sheldrick: I don't know. I can remember having them on the tree. That I remember. But why I saved that particular one. It might have been mine.
Bennett: Everybody had one?
Sheldrick: Everybody may have had one. I don't remember that, either. But, by the same token, I ended up with it whether it was mine or not. It may have been among things that I brought from home when I was married.
Bennett: You might have put it away and forgot it and then years later found it and thought -- Oh, I can't throw this away.
Sheldrick: Yes. That could be. But I think I would remember that. But, I do remember having it when it was new. I might have been five, six, seven, along in there.
Bennett: It might be the first one you ever remember seeing.
Sheldrick: It's 70 years old, anyway. It's funny the moths haven't gotten into it before this, you know. Do you know that rhyme-- "I saved my cake for Santa on Christmas Eve from tea." And then it goes on to say, "When everyone was fast asleep, everyone but me, I tiptoed into mama's room oh, just as still, to see if he had been there yet." -- Meaning Santa Claus. "Dear me, it made my feelings ache, for there sat a little mouse eating Santa's cake."
Bennett: I never heard of that.
Sheldrick: But, as I said, my mother gave all those other things to my brother. At the time, Jack was the first grandchild and we were all happy for him to have them. And why the rest of us that had children and came along John wouldn't give us even one thing. I never asked. No, no. I wouldn't ask. Now John has been dead 2 years. I wouldn't ask his wife for them. And, very frankly, now Mary has everything, but even at that -- just one thing. But, you know, I used to buy things to put on my tree -- or our tree -- and when my cousins and their children would come, I'd let them take whatever they wanted off the tree. "Now you can have anything from here down -- or from here up – or from here across." But, I kept the old things and I gave those to Mary. And she has those. Of course, after Ann died, I only had Mary. And, then, of course, she had Chris. And there were things I made for it. I made snowflakes and all that junk that you make for Christmas trees. It was just one of those things. But, time changes everything.Synopsis:Keywords: Barley Mill Road; Brandywine Creek; Breck's Mill; Christmas; Christmas decorations; Du Pont, Alfred I. (Alfred Irenee), 1864-1935; Du Pont, S. Hallock (Samuel Hallock), 1901-1974; Hagley Museum and Library; Recreation; Swamp Hall (Greenville, Del.: Estate); swimming; Traditions; Walker's Bank (Del.:Village)
- Moving to Elsmere, Delaware; Outhouses on the BrandywinePartial Transcript: Sheldrick: What is so important to you today, tomorrow you can't remember. Do you remember what you worried about this time last year?
Bennett: Not really.
Sheldrick: But, was it important then?
Bennett: Yes. Yes it was.
Sheldrick: And I suppose that’ s the way God has meant it to be.
Bennett: Can we talk about a few things that I forgot to ask you last week. You mentioned that you moved in, I think, 1924.
Bennett: I'd like to know where you moved to.
Sheldrick: We moved to Colonial Park. And Colonial Park is – as you go out Lancaster Avenue to duPont Road, you make a left hand turn on duPont Road and you go from there and that's Colonial Park until you get to Lancaster Village. Down into Elsmere.
Bennett: Did you live there until you married?
Sheldrick: I lived there and my sister and her husband and my brother still live in the house.
Bennett: Oh, you didn't move around very much.
Sheldrick: No. This is the second house that I have lived in since I was married. And I lived up on Barley Mill Road and we moved over here. And that was it. My mother moved from one side of the Crick to the other. And that was it. So, she moved twice in her life. She would remind us that a rolling stone gathered no moss. She believed in that.
Bennett: We talked about your house and we talked about the garbage dump, and so forth, and I forgot to ask you about the outhouses. I'd like to know where they were.
Sheldrick: They were up on the hill behind our house.
Sheldrick: Well, 50 foot anyway.
Bennett: For everyone in the area there?
Sheldrick: Everybody had their own. Oh, dear, yes. And you kept it whitewashed and scrubbed. You'd whitewash it. You could never paint it. We had a wall behind our house and it would be whitewashed. All the stones would be whitewashed. The grapevine planted in back.
Bennett: Why whitewash? Is it cheaper then paint?
Sheldrick: I don't know. Everybody used it. I don't know what the idea was. I don't know that it was cheaper than paint. It probably was. Oh, I know it was. But, it was just done.
Bennett: Now, what kind of paper did you use? I've seen where they used the Sears Roebuck catalog.
Sheldrick: The Sears Roebuck catalog. That was very stylish. That would be it. There were very little tissue paper. There were no toilet paper. You'd use newspaper or any kind of soft wrapping paper.
Bennett: In other words, you'd cut it up in pieces?
Sheldrick: You'd cut it in squares and --
Bennett: Put it in a box or something?
Sheldrick: No, leave it in the corner and that was it. But, ours was different from the rest. We had a high seat and a low seat. My father had built a new one and he made one seat much lower so the little ones could sit on that.
Bennett: I've never seen one.
Sheldrick: Nobody else ever did, either.
Bennett: Well, he was inventive, wasn't he? He was very handy.
Sheldrick: Well, he learned his trade --shipbuilding. And he had all kinds of tools and he would go up to Green and McIntire and buy lumber. Green and McIntire eventually became Shields Lumber.
Bennett: Where was that? Was it always in Greenville?
Sheldrick: It was always in Greenville, yes. And it extended -- well, through the years it has extended up the Kennett Pike. But, it used to be Green and Flynn. It was Green and McIntire, Green and Flynn, and then McIntire's and then Shield's Lumber. Dan Shields was bookkeeper --the father, Dan. Senior. He was the bookkeeper, I guess, for Flynn and for Green and Flynn. And then he took it over himself. Because he was bookkeeper there for years and years.
Bennett: Was Green Greenville, do you know?
Sheldrick: I don't know. It could be. And they lived in that house. Who lives in that house? Right across the road from it and it has the stucco wall around it -- or did have.
Bennett: I know where you mean.
Sheldrick: Well, that's where Green lived. And McIntires lived on Buck Road. They tore that house down. What is it now, Greenville Manor?
Bennett: I know where you mean. Pretty area.
Sheldrick: Oh, beautiful. Then the old Hall farm, you know, is right up the road before you come to the Greenville School. Not much money we had, but a lot of fun.
Bennett: I do think you had a lot of fun. We talked about a store that was Gregg.
Sheldrick: Harry Gregg's store. I showed you where it was on the picture. At the bottom of Rising Sun Hill.
Bennett: Is that the one that had the post office in it?
Sheldrick: No. The post office was down near where Hagee's Saloon and tavern was. Down below that again. Was the Cavanaugh store.
Bennett: Can you describe the post office for me.
Sheldrick: The post office was underneath where Hagee's Bar was.
Bennett: What did they call that?
Sheldrick: They just called it Hagee's. Well, that was the store, and this corner it was laid out in four corners. And this corner was the barbershop, and this corner is the ice cream. They had ice cream and whatever. And this side was the grocery store and then this one was the post office.
Bennett: The corner closest to Hagley was the --
Sheldrick: No. Next to the hill -- back on the right side was the post office. Back on the left side was the barbershop and in the front on the left -- when you go in the door on the right -- was the grocery store and on the left was the ice cream.
Bennett: And you had to go out the doors to go into the other stores.
Sheldrick: No. It was all one big area.
Bennett: Was the post office -- had the little bins?
Sheldrick: It had the little bins and the mail was sorted alphabetically so that when you went, you would take it out and go on through and you got your mail and the rest was put back until somebody else would come for the same letter.
Bennett: No postman?
Sheldrick: No. After they closed the post office -- and I don't know when that happened. I guess it was after 1921, after the powder mills closed. No, no. It was long after that. It was changed to city delivery. And you got your mail like Main Street, Walker's Bank, Long Row, Squirrel Run -- and we had a mailman then and he had a truck. And he'd come along and deliver your mail. With the mail truck. If it was raining, he would bring it up to the door to you.
Bennett: Was there a lot of activity always in the store – like the men in the barbershop?
Sheldrick: Yes. Quite a bit. Especially the barbershop. There used to be a young man. His name was Ralph Lloyd. He was the barber. But before that, Comley had a barbershop along there next to Hagee's. There were a barbershop and a drug store and Cavanaugh's grocery store and whatever else they had. Then they tore down the drug store and Dorman's house. Dormans moved down to the end of Breck's Lane. And they tore their house down and Cavanaugh's house down -- their home and the store. And then you went into an entrance. It was called the Red Men's Hall. It was above the store and the pharmacy.
Bennett: This was a men's club? Red Men's?
Sheldrick: It was a lodge. The regular Red Men's Lodge. They had their meetings up there.
Bennett: You said they tore down the different homes. Were they torn down to build this new building? Is that why? Or were they --
Sheldrick: It was just vacant land there after that.
Bennett: I mean they were torn down because they were in bad shape?
Sheldrick: Not necessarily.
Bennett: Just to build the Lodge?
Sheldrick: Yes. Oh, that was all torn down. I don't know why. You just expected it. But, you see, the houses -- the different people owned their houses and they weren't torn down. Any house that would be privately owned was not torn down. I don't know why. Well, the people moved away. The powder mills had closed. People moved away and went to work in town.
Bennett: Probably cheaper to build from scratch than it would be to renovate.
Sheldrick: I wouldn't say that, no. Because those walls were stone. Thick, you know. There had to be a reason for it, but what it was I never knew.Synopsis:Keywords: Dick Cavanaugh's store; Elsmere (Del.); Greenville (Del.); Hagee's tavern; Harry Gregg's store; Outhouses; Red Men's Lodge; Shields Lumber
- Newspapers; The Influenza Epidemic (1918-1919); Doctors and medicine; Getting vaccinated for smallpox; Menstruation and pubertyPartial Transcript: Bennett: The newspapers. Did you have to go to the store to get the newspaper?
Sheldrick: No. We always had a paper boy. Lundy -- the one I showed you in the book. Well, they had the papers for years. The Morning News and the Evening Journal. There were three papers. We had the Morning News. We had the Evening Journal and we had the Every Evening. And you bought whichever one you liked. I don't know. But, I do know we didn't get the Morning News because Ma said that she'd never get anything done if we got the Morning News. I can remember that. And then we had the Sunday paper -- the Sunday Star.
Bennett: Did it have comics?
Sheldrick: Oh, yeah. This little girl said, one time we were all out, and she was much younger than I was. She always thought the Hackendorns had money. They had two back doors. And they got two Sunday papers.
Bennett: How big were the papers?
Sheldrick: About the size now. I don't think the size has changed at all. In fact, I'm reasonably sure that it hasn't. And then, the men that would work for the Journal -- for the Every Evening -- they would work Saturdays -- work on the Sunday Star to get it out on Sunday morning.
Bennett: Do you remember if it was a recap of the week like it is now?
Sheldrick: No. No. Just like it is.
Bennett: Were the comics in color?
Sheldrick: No, they were black. Don't you remember Happy Hooligan? And that son-in-law. Maggie and Jigs. I can't think. The Katzenjammer Kids. If I got my thoughts together, I could think of them all, I suppose. You always read Little Benny's Notebook. And the society page, you know.
Bennett: Who was the society editor?
Sheldrick: I knew her. I can't think what her name was, but it will come to me if you wait long enough. I remember the weddings they would tell about what the bridesmaids wore. But now they don't do that.
Bennett: No. It's down to a bare minimum. Guess they don't want to give up that much space. Last week, when we stopped, we were discussing the flu of 1918 and you had said to me -- you were talking about Cathedral Cemetery and the trench that was built and you had said to me, "The trench for graves at Cathedral, caskets put one in right after the other. Do you want to go on with that now?
Sheldrick: If you want to. But there's not much more to that. And very frankly, I don't think any of those bodies have been moved. At least they have never been sold for lots. Some of those iron crosses are still up there. At least they were the last time I was in Cathedral which was sometime ago now.
Bennett: Are they identified? Or is it that you know this because you know?
Sheldrick: I can remember this being done at that time. You know, you were buried without any religious ceremony. I don't know. They may have had a memorial mass or memorial services of some kind after it was all over. But, as far as I know, as they died, they just put them side by side. Some of the people had lots there. The people at St. Joseph's and Greenhill also Mt. Salem, the people that had their own lots -- their people would be buried in the family lot. But, we were very lucky as far as we were concerned. The ones that had it didn't have it that badly and nobody died of it in our family.
Bennett: If you needed a doctor -- aside from the flu – just for accidents or an illness, did you have a family doctor and how did you get hold of him?
Sheldrick: We had Dr. Chandler and he came to George Frizzell's drug store every morning. He would stop there. If you wanted a doctor and could wait until the next day or that day, you'd go over or send someone and they would tell Dr. Chandler to stop when he goes by and then after Dr. Chandler died -- he was quite an old man when he died. He looked like Santa Claus. I can remember him well. We had a Dr. Spear that walked from town. He had an office at 8th and West next to Salesanium School and he would walk from town every day. My mother would tell you to sit out on the porch and if you see Dr. Spear come, tell him I want him. And he would come in right there. Or she would get you ready and take you. He had office hours. And he lived next door to Jenny Toomey. He had his office there. The family name was Moore. He had his office there. And she would take you down. I remember we had a smallpox scare one time and we were all taken down and vaccinated. Dr. Spear vaccinated us all. That was another red letter day.
Bennett: Let's hear about it.
Sheldrick: Well, you just had your turn. You went. You weren't the only one there. There were other mothers there with their children. He would just vaccinate you -- no pomp or ceremony.
Bennett: It didn't hurt?
Sheldrick: Not that I remember. Just a little scratch. Eventually I think you got a mark of some kind.
Bennett: Do you know what the black measles was?
Sheldrick: Oh, I have heard of black measles and German measles.
Bennett: I was just curious to know.
Sheldrick: I don't know. You either had measles or you didn't.
Bennett: Did you have those signs saying, Measles, Whooping Cough, put on your doors?
Sheldrick: The only sign, when I had diphtheria there were a sign on our door, Diphtheria. And there were no one in the house but my mother and I. The rest of them – my father took the boys down to a lady that had a boarding house. And he and the boys stayed at the boarding house. And Mary and Eleanor went with my grandmother. And my mother and I stayed in the house. Dr. Spear was the doctor at that time.
Bennett: Do you remember this, or were you too young?
Sheldrick: Oh, no. I was 13.
Bennett: That was a devastating illness.
Sheldrick: And I remember he gave me that antitoxin and I thought I'd never walk again. It sort of crippled me on one side -- my leg -- but it came around. He didn't seem to be a bit concerned about it. And if he told my mother the moon was made of green cheese, she believed him. He was quite a young man, quite young. I don't think he was 30. And he walked every day from 8th and West out to the bottom of Breck's Lane.
Bennett: You would almost think he would have used a horse and buggy because it would have been faster.
Sheldrick: And he could walk.
Bennett: How about the winter?
Sheldrick: Winter or summer. But, I guess maybe he made calls on his way out of town, 18th Street and on in town because those people would have had to go in town to the doctor. Trolley service wasn't that good at that time. Not dependable. But he was. He was really -- I can remember, you know. Not hard for me to remember. But as far as the measles, themselves. I do remember my mother keeping the room very dark. The shades down -- It was supposed to be bad for your eyes. And if you would get hot things to drink, it would bring out the rash. You would get hot tea or hot milk -- or anything hot -- soup -- anything hot. And the next day you would be all -- And I think they still use that method, don't they?
Bennett: Hardly. They have penicillin now. When you mentioned the age of 13, I'm going to ask you about when you became a young lady and menstruation, if you don't mind.
Sheldrick: I was 14.
Bennett: Did your mother tell you? Would you tell me how you found out?
Sheldrick: My mother told me and I didn't know until I had started. And I didn't know what was wrong. And then she just simply told me very politely.
Bennett: A big shock to you, I'm sure.
Sheldrick: Not that I can remember. No, I don't think I was shocked because she would tell you in such a way -- now this is it and this is the way it's supposed to be. And, now I was 14; yet Ann started menstruating when she wasn't quite 11. You just don't know. But I do remember her telling me and she said, "Now when it comes time for Mary or Eleanor, I'll tell them." And nothing more was said.
Bennett: Did she ask you not to tell the girls?
Sheldrick: No. She just said when it comes time, I'll tell them.
Bennett: She didn't have any of those little books?
Sheldrick: No. To protect the working girl. No.
Bennett: What did you use as a napkin?
Sheldrick: She bought that Birdseye that was used for baby diapers. And she would hem those.
Bennett: Nine stitches to the inch.
Sheldrick: They were done on the sewing machine. And you had to wash those yourself.
Bennett: Did you bleach them? What would you bleach them with?
Sheldrick: Brown soap. Like Octagon soap. Fels Naphtha soap.Synopsis:Keywords: Birdseye fabric; Cathedral Cemetery (Wilmington, Del.); Diphtheria; Doctors; Fels Naptha soap; Green Hill Presbyterian Church (Wilmington, Del.); Medicines; Menstruation; Mt. Salem United Methodist Church (Wilmington, Del.); Newspapers; Octagon soap; Puberty; Saint Joseph on the Brandywine Roman Catholic Church (Wilmington, Del.); Sam Frizzell's store; Smallpox; Vaccinations