Interview with Catherine Hackendorn Sheldrick, 1987 May 21 [audio]
- Identifying people in images from "The Workers' World at Hagley" by Glenn Porter; Description of homes at Hagley's worker villages; Memories of grandfather's grape arborKeywords: "The Workers' World at Hagley" by Glenn Porter; Belin House (Greenville, Del: Dwelling); Free Park (Del.: Village); Gibbons House (Greenville, Del.: Dwelling); Grapes; Keg Mill; Outhouses; Seitz House (Greenville, Del.: Dwelling); Walker's Banks (Del.: Village); West Grove, Pa.Transcript: Bennett: Now that was here, because we have, remember the name Macklem?
Sheldrick: Yeah.
Bennett: Okay, there's a picture of the old gentleman feeding chickens around here.
Sheldrick: Now when I knew the Macklem's, he was a friend of my Father, this Mr. Macklem -- now let me think -- but I do not remember that at all, Peg, that don't mean a thing...
Bennett: You mean this?
Sheldrick: Yeah.
Bennett: It looks like a springhouse -- was it a springhouse?
Sheldrick: I can't answer that, I thought of it -- I don't know –
Bennett: I thought of it as being more of a shed, and I know, I think in that "Workers' World” book that I gave you, there's a picture of him feeding chickens back here.
Sheldrick: Oh yes, I have seen that.
Bennett: Okay, and that's the gentleman, that would be the -- I think the Grandfather Macklem.
Sheldrick: But this Macklem, George, there were two children of them, now wait until I think of what the father's name was. I think he was George and the son was George and the daughter was Mamie. And Mamie graduated from the old - it was then, it was at 8th and West, the Physicians and Surgeons Hospital, and then it was the Memorial Hospital, and what it is – now it's the -- no it was the Homeopathic Hospital and then it was the Memorial, that was it, I knew it had changed hands. Now isn't this strange, I can remember those people and they had -- and there were -- wait until I think what her name was and she, she married...
Bennett: Okay, I'm gonna identify for the tape recorder that we have just had lunch at the Belin House and you said you had never been in there before.
Sheldrick: No, I was never there before. Now I have been in the Seitz House many a time, many times.
Bennett: And you mentioned at lunchtime that you wondered where the hill was that you sledded on, and this is it, see, we're going down...
Sheldrick: No it wasn't this, it went this way, it went...
Bennett: Wait, I'll show you when the...
Sheldrick: No, this is Free Park and there were houses...
Bennett: Free Park is up further in the back, okay.
Sheldrick: It didn't come down this far, only those houses there.
Bennett: And stopped here?
Sheldrick: Yeah, see I suppose that is the foundation...
Bennett: Yes it is.
Sheldrick: There's still the foundation. Uncle Lou lived on this side and the Toomey's lived on the other. And the fireplace...
Bennett: Now wait, when you say that he lived here, do you mean he lived in the end house where the...
Sheldrick: He lived in the end house here.
Bennett: Okay, he preceded the Cheney's?
Sheldrick: No he, yes, yes, yeah.
Bennett: Okay, he was before the Cheney's?
Sheldrick: It was before the Cheney's, yes. And then the Toomey's, they moved to a farm up in West Grove, and Mr. Toomey ran that farm for years, made a success of it too. Raised his family up there.
Bennett: Now do you remember what was out, how this looked here next to...
Sheldrick: Yes, you went up steps, you went up steps to it.
Bennett: Over here on the side by the Cheney's?
Sheldrick: No, in the front, in the front.
Bennett: Oh, in the front, okay, you went up steps...
Sheldrick: Yeah, you went up the front and it was - it looked like stone that had been whitewashed, you know, they would be stone houses. I don't remember this on here, do you think that was done later? It seems to me it was a frame house.
Bennett: Well, there's stone underneath though.
Sheldrick: Yeah, yeah. Well then they evidently put something on it, you know, put that wainscoting or whatever, what do they call that?
Bennett: You mean stucco, like stucco.
Sheldrick: Yes, stucco is what I'm trying to think of.
Bennett: What - how many houses were here that you can remember?
Sheldrick: As I can remember, only the two. Now there could have been more, but I do know that Toomey's and Uncle Lou lived next door. And there was a shed up here that Uncle Lou kept a horse and carriage in it.
Bennett: In that carriage house back there?
Sheldrick: Could have been, no, it wasn't that big.
Bennett: How did it look along the front here?
Sheldrick: Very much like this, a porch here, but it was up higher, it was steps up to it, more steps than that.
Bennett: Okay, were the houses together, or were they single?
Sheldrick: Yes, they were together.
Bennett: They were joined, uh-huh.
Sheldrick: Yes, as I remember.
Bennett: Now I think we're going to have to get out of the way here, one car or the other.
Sheldrick: Look at this.
Bennett: Okay, now that's our garden to simulate a garden that, you know, the families would have had. Now can you picture where the outhouses were?
Sheldrick: They must have been at the back because they were all at the back.
Bennett: But this is the back of the house.
Sheldrick: This is the back of the house?
Bennett: Uh-huh, the front of the house is upstairs, there's a parlor up there.
Sheldrick: Oh, the parlor would be upstairs anyway, there was nothing downstairs but a kitchen and a living room. And then you went upstairs to the parlor, and it was a parlor, and the bedroom. And then there were a third story.
Bennett: That's right, that's exactly what this is, yes.
Sheldrick: Now how can I remember that, and I can't remember where I put the cookie.
Bennett: I don't know, I wish you could.
Sheldrick: Oh I'll find it, Peggy.
Bennett: I would like to take you in there, but I don't think...
Sheldrick: No, I don't think so.
Bennett: I don't think so. Hello ladies, how are you, this lady used to live along here and she's describing the house to me and she hasn't even seen it. She's got the house and got the third floor, the whole thing. But you think the outhouses were in the back?
Sheldrick: They had to be, they had to be.
Bennett: By the parlor?
Sheldrick: Because as I remember now, there was a back door, but definitely this was, they seemed to be up higher, you know what I mean? At that time, see I was a little girl, maybe that was higher, you know.
Bennett: It seemed higher then, that's true. That could be. Now this is the lane...
Sheldrick: But I don't remember this building, this here, this.
Bennett: Well this is part of this, see this is the shed.
Sheldrick: Oh there.
Bennett: Okay, and this is where...
Sheldrick: That came later, yeah.
Bennett: See that would be, that was added...
Sheldrick: This fence I don't remember either.
Bennett: I think that just, you know, that type of fencing.
Sheldrick: They put that up.
Bennett: See on the stones - now is this the hill, see there's the gates...
Sheldrick: This is the house, yeah, yeah.
Bennett: Now did you sleigh from here down here by what we call the Gibbons House, or did you start sledding at the gates?
Sheldrick: We started up here and we made the turn, you know, we made the turn, but I could remember that we couldn't go any further than this, that I remember. We'd have to turn over.
Bennett: Okay, at the gates you mean. Okay, you couldn't go beyond the gates into the yards, yes.
Sheldrick: Yeah. Isn't that something.
Bennett: And you remember that house there then?
Sheldrick: Oh yeah, yes, but I can't remember who lived in that.
Bennett: I know it was the, that's where the blacksmith shop was, if you remember.
Sheldrick: That's the blacksmith...
Bennett: But I really can't tell you, I don't know who lived there.
Sheldrick: And that's what they call Blacksmith Hill?
Bennett: They call it that, yes, because that's where the blacksmith shop is, right there at the gates, you do see the gates?
Sheldrick: And I can't seem to get, I might get it -- does this road dead end here -- it didn't seem to me that it was.
Bennett: I don't think I'm supposed to do this, but let’ s do it anyhow. If we went straight down there, that's the Millwright Shop there, okay do you see it. And right on beyond that is the Brandywine. So you're really going right down.
Sheldrick: I was right then, because it didn't go any further up.
Bennett: That's right, that's right.
Sheldrick: I didn't remember it going - it was dead end.
Bennett: Okay, now I'm going to take you down here, and we'll turn around and...
Sheldrick: There's definitely a change around here.
Bennett: Oh yes, yes. Now in the archaeological dig, they just discovered a house, or the remains of a house, it's right in here.
Sheldrick: I don't remember that.
Bennett: It's covered – okay, the stone, and they think maybe was fire,
Sheldrick: Could have been, yeah.
Bennett: Okay, now see, we park, we go back there to park.
Sheldrick: Now, as you go along the Brandywine on the other side, go past Walkers' Banks, you went up what we called the Keg Mill, up at the Keg Mill. And the Keg Mill burned down years and years ago.
Bennett: Okay, do you remember that?
Sheldrick: I don't remember it, I just remember them talking about it, you know, it was before, isn't that pretty up there?
Bennett: Uh-huh, it's lovely, isn't it?
Sheldrick: Uh-huh, gorgeous.
Bennett: Now see they're starting a grape arbor, grapes were very important.
Sheldrick: Well the grape arbor on Grandpa Hackendorn's came out over the porch and the grapes grew down. See, here's some, they have some growing on this trellis. And they put in a garden here because there were gardens. And there the rain barrels. Now there's an outhouse.
Bennett: Well see, now they put that there, they're really now sure Where it should be positioned or if the door should be the way is is now which is away from the house, or if the door would be in front of the house, you see what I mean.
Sheldrick: Well I remember Grandpa Hackendorn's and there was a boardwalk from under the grapevine down to the outhouse and it faced the church. Now that I can remember as distinct, I think I have a picture of that.
Bennett: I hope you find it and show it to me.
Sheldrick: Now I'm going to see - you remind me –
Bennett: Okay. - Landmarks at Hagley; Making butter; Sledding; Toys and games; Identifying who lived where in Hagley's worker villagesKeywords: Butter molds; Christ Church Christiana Hundred (Wilmington, Del.); Christ Church Station; Du Pont, S. Hallock (Samuel Hallock), 1901-1974; Free Park (Del.: Village); Jacks (Game); Sand Hole Woods; Squirrel Run (Del.: Village); Street-railroads; Upper Banks (Del.: Village)Transcript: Sheldrick: And my cousin, I'll tell you how I know I have it, my cousin gave me the things that she didn't know who they was, and one of them was my cousin, and she has this beautiful doll in her hand, and I said, "Of all the nice places to take that child's picture with that doll, you do it in front of the outhouse."
Bennett: And Christ Church right across the way.
Sheldrick: Oh people, who has more fun than people.
Bennett: Now is this where you think...
Sheldrick: No, it didn't look anything like this, Peg, it didn't look anything like that, it was just a shed, a shed, you know.
Bennett: Okay, much smaller?
Sheldrick: Oh yes, yes, much smaller. There were no second story to it, definitely I know that. Now there's another springhouse. And I don't remember that springhouse either.
Bennett: Well that's been there, I'm pretty sure.
Sheldrick: Oh, that's original, but I remember the crooks and things that the butter would be put in.
Bennett: In there?
Sheldrick: Salt water.
Bennett: How did you identify your butter, do you remember, did you have some sort of a...
Sheldrick: We have a mold, and it had a -- wonder what happened to that? Peg, I haven't thought about that in a hundred years. It had a sheaf of wheat on it, yeah.
Bennett: That's the way they all - now we have one in there in that kitchen and it's an eagle.
Sheldrick: An eagle, uh-huh, I never saw...
Bennett: For the butter mold. So you had a sheaf of wheat, it's interesting.
Sheldrick: Yes, yes.
Bennett: Everybody had to have something different, that's for sure. This is really, up here at the turn is where it was Free Park then, and this was the ...
Sheldrick: Yeah, yeah, and then we just came on down, down on the sled.
Bennett: Uh-huh, and you would turn right there near the house?
Sheldrick: You'd make this turn, isn’ t that something! And this would be all the Frank du Pont property, wouldn't it? This here?
Bennett: I think so, but I mean...
Sheldrick: I'm reasonable sure. And this Horty lived in this house after, oh they lived in there for years. Mr. Horty was what they called the coachman, and then when they had cars, cars came into existence, the son, Tom, was the chauffeur.
Bennett: Oh, okay.
Sheldrick: Then there were Hugh Horty and Jimmy and Tom, Tom was-one of the coachmen, and the father and the mother, and May and Francis and Leesie, her name was Elise, we called her Leesie.
Bennett: Now this is the house where the sexton's house is where your grandfather...
Sheldrick: Yeah.
Bennett: And he moved here after they closed the yards?
Sheldrick: Yeah, but this looks to me like an addition. I think Grandpop's house was only, oh I'm positive that this was the living room along here.
Bennett: Right here at the end...
Sheldrick: And this was a porch and it came down with a grape arbor, came down and down.
Bennett: Over here.
Sheldrick: The coal box was in this corner here.
Bennett: Next to the church?
Sheldrick: Yeah, next to the church, there were a fence from the end of the coal box on down. And down to the back garden.
Bennett: Okay, now do you - is this the front porch that you mentioned?
Sheldrick: There were a porch on that and it wasn't I'm going to see if I can get those pictures when I get home. Heavens, I didn't think I'd be needing them or I'd have put them out. I never thought of them until I -- you talked about how they faced, then you can see that it faces the church. And then-we used to play Jacks on the Sunday School porch.
Bennett: Right here at the church?
Sheldrick: Yes, we used to play -- is there a porch to where – a stone...
Bennett: I guess we can go around there, do you want to go? Let's go.
Sheldrick: Around here, and they called it the Sunday School. Go on around.
Bennett: Okay, now we're at Christ Church, this would be.
Sheldrick: That could have been it, but it seemed to me that it was, it could have been there, but it seemed to me to be right in about here.
Bennett: There, there's a porch right there.
Sheldrick: Yes, yeah, that's where it is.
Bennett: Okay, so closer to the back, yes.
Sheldrick: To the back, and we used to play Jacks there.
Bennett: Right on that porch?
Sheldrick: Yeah.
Bennett: You'd just come across the road then?
Sheldrick: Yeah. Oh and the ball would bounce as high. Now it says "One Way," I guess I gotta go one way.
Bennett: I've never been back here before.
Sheldrick: Did you ever, oh every girl played Jacks, did you play Jacks?
Bennett: Oh yes, yes.
Sheldrick: And you're on your onesies and twosies and three. Now this is a new addition, this chapel here, that wasn't, as a matter of fact, this whole building wasn't here.
Bennett: I think, yes, I don't know how old this is but, I think this looks more like the Sunday School or something, I would imagine.
Sheldrick: Yes. Now I have been there to the Green Show.
Bennett: Uh-huh, yes.
Sheldrick: Now I know definitely that that building, and this wasn't here either, this here.
Bennett: This...
Sheldrick: I don't know what that is, Peg.
Bennett: Well, it looks like it might have been the first Sunday School or...
Sheldrick: No, I don't think, no, it couldn't have been because it wasn't even there, you know.
Bennett: No, maybe it was a carriage house, because now, it looks like a garage, don’ t you think? Now can you see the - your house where your grandfather lived, there next to the sexton's?
Sheldrick: Yeah, yeah. And you see then they had white grapes that grew in the back of the house, but it don't look anything like that does now, Peg. See, it was a frame building as I remember it. It wasn't anywhere near that big.
Bennett: It's apartments now I understand. I'm gonna take you over there again, and we have the tape recorder on, to see the area which was in Squirrel Run.
Sheldrick: Now this was honeysuckle and...
Bennett: All along here and the vines.
Sheldrick: Oh everything, see it's all cleared up. Now see here, you came down here and you went down over the hill here.
Bennett: Okay, now we're in the parking lot of Christ Church, and where it's cleared off, you mean that house right there?
Sheldrick: Yes, yeah. That's where Harkins and Jacksons – that’ s the only two people I remember living there -- in my time.
Bennett: And it was two houses, okay, see there, there's the frame and stone combination, that's what you were referring to.
Sheldrick: Yes, yes, but see then Dan Harkins lived in that, his father and mother, and then, oh, Jacksons moved out, that was it, and then Dan married and he and Evelyn lived in the other, where Jackson lived. See this was all wilderness too.
Bennett: Now then back down in there is Squirrel Run, you know the...
Sheldrick: Yeah, down at the bottom of the hill.
Bennett: Down the little lane, yeah.
Sheldrick: And then Hallock du Pont owned that house there, at that end, so he evidently owned, I don't know where his line would come in. But then at the bottom of the hill, at the bottom of this hill were high steps that they built for the people to get off the trolley car, and it were a sign up over, you know, like an arch and it was Christ Church Station.
Bennett: Right here?
Sheldrick: No, down at the long space as you enter Squirrel Run.
Bennett: Oh, okay.
Sheldrick: It's just inside Squirrel Run.
Bennett: And it was called Christ Church Station?
Sheldrick: Christ Church Station, I always did have trouble with two successive words that you spelled them with the one letter.
Bennett: I'm gonna ride you through the other...
Sheldrick: It's very rare, the only time that we ever walked up this road and down was when we would come to Grandma's and go down and get ice cream and we ran up with it so it wouldn't be milk when we'd get there you know. And my Father, or sometimes we'd walk up to the end of the line and get it and bring it down, you know to my Grandfather and Grandmother. But this is where Horty's lived...
Bennett: Right in here.
Sheldrick: We used to come up here to parties, that was a beautiful house for a party.
Bennett: Oh I bet they're more like mansions -- they are, yeah.
Sheldrick: And then the sand hole was up here, the sand hole was up there.
Bennett: The cemetery you mean?
Sheldrick: Yeah.
Bennett: It's right directly in front of us.
Sheldrick: But we never called that anything but the sand hole. And I think they done, there was sand in that at one time and they used it, as far as I can remember the story, they used that sand in some way in the making of the powder. Now what for, I wouldn’ t know.
Bennett: I just know Sand Hole Woods is the name of the...
Sheldrick: In here you went in.
Bennett: No, right over here, see right over there, see right there?
Sheldrick: Oh, this is the house down, yeah, yeah, this goes down into Crowninshield's.
Bennett: I'm gonna take you down there, like to see?
Sheldrick: Oh, I'd love it.
Bennett: Okay, here we go.
Sheldrick: Now the Library wasn't here.
Bennett: No, you haven't seen that?
Sheldrick: No...
Bennett: I'll drive you by that also.
Sheldrick: This is the first time I've been down here in years and years, Peggy.
Bennett: Okay. Now I do think that the entrance has been changed.
Sheldrick: Now this is what we used to call Upper Banks.
Bennett: That's correct. And I think the approach to the house was more direct than it is now, I really can't take you up too close, but...
Sheldrick: I'm trying to think, it's all, you know...
Bennett: You can see a little bit, now there's the garden, they're putting the garden back the way the original garden was. And the house is back there. This is the barn, do you see the barn?
Sheldrick: Oh yes, well that was always there.
Bennett: Yes. And the house is really beyond it, and I can't drive you down there.
Sheldrick: Yeah, well there were no residences along here at all.
Bennett: Just Crowninshield.
Sheldrick: Just Crowninshield, that's all there were here.
Bennett: Yes, that's the only one. And see that's the barn and then that's...
Sheldrick: Well then when you came out the barn, you know, you were in the, we called this the Meadow, and we were out in the Meadow.
Bennett: Okay, okay. Yeah, well this is really what you would call this I would say. Now they have a greenhouse here, for flowers, and this is...
Sheldrick: Then there were...
Bennett: That was the office there, the original office.
Sheldrick: I was just gonna say, a little stone building, and there were nothing here from there until you got, now this, I don't recognize this road either.
Bennett: Okay, now see that's changed, this is probably part of your Meadow.
Sheldrick: Now does this go down over the iron bridge?
Bennett: Up further, up further. Now there's, see, an old house. The bridge, the Brandywine's down there to the right, the way you're looking.
Sheldrick: But I can remember the barn very well, but I don't remember, oh, that greenhouse, I know that, now here's where the houses were, now wait'll I think... - Identifying who lived where in Hagley's worker villagesKeywords: Barley Mill Road; Breck's Mill; Du Pont, S. Hallock (Samuel Hallock), 1901-1974; Hagley Museum and Library; Holly Island; Soda House; Squirrel Run (Del.: Village); Upper Banks (Del.: Village) Brandywine Creek; Wagoner's Row (Del.: Village)Transcript: Bennett: Okay, now this is the Library.
Sheldrick: Think who they were, they were the Callahan's, and there were two families of Dougherty's. Uncle Leese was Hackendorn and the Godfreys and I'll have to keep thinking, I thought I could name them all.
Bennett: Let me just see if I can slow down.
Sheldrick: The Dougherty's moved from down here, down on Barley Mill Road, and then we moved into the house after the Dougherty's. This is definitely new, I never saw this before.
Bennett: This is the Library...
Sheldrick: This is the Library.
Bennett: This is the new Library.
Sheldrick: I know I have read of the Library.
Bennett: Okay, this is it. It's a beautiful building and it has a very lovely view of, I'm gonna take the picture in that you gave, if you don't mind.
Sheldrick: No.
Bennett: I was hoping to meet Mr. McKelvey so that you could...
Sheldrick: Well, it'll be alright with me, and don't feel any responsibility for it, Peggy.
Bennett: Well, I would like to.
Sheldrick: I know you would, and I know - you know I'd show that - Who knows What it is. I'd have to be there to tell you what it was.
Bennett: Well this is -- they know.
Sheldrick: Yeah.
Bennett: This is true. Okay, I'm gonna turn this off for now, if you don't mind, and I'll be..
Sheldrick: Eighty-three now.
Bennett: He would be 83 now.
Sheldrick: It's more than seventy years old, that's a rough guess, you know.
Bennett: Oh, I don't think he was thirteen.
Sheldrick: Oh no, no.
Bennett: Would you like to see down here, might as well, right?
Sheldrick: What is down there?
Bennett: That's where the Soda House -- nitrate of soda.
Sheldrick: Oh yes. .They're gonna have an auction or something at the Soda House, is this where it is? There's gonna be an auction at the Soda House.
Bennett: Soon?
Sheldrick: Now this is...
Bennett: Now see here's one of the old buildings, that was okay. The Soda House they have modernized, put a modern front on, and it's a multi-purpose for meetings and then there's a lot of the Library stuff is there.
Sheldrick: Soda House, upper entrance, lower entrance, uh-huh. Parking lot. This is all, and I think this is the road that goes down over the Brandywine, is it not?
Bennett: Yeah, it's down there, uh-huh. That's the back of oh, I don't know what that is.
Sheldrick: Now, and then it goes over the Brandywine and it was called the Iron Bridge, we called it the Iron Bridge.
Bennett: There's the Brandywine, see?
Sheldrick: Uh- huh, yes, yeah. It would have to be along here.
Bennett: Now see, here's the Soda House...
Sheldrick: Is that a dam there? Or am I - I don't think so, no because I don't remember..
Bennett: I don't think so, no. No, I think it's up further.
Sheldrick: I never remember skating this section of the Brandywine either, Peggy.
Bennett: You don't?
Sheldrick: Uh-huh.
Bennett: Okay, now here's the - see, this is how it looks now.
Sheldrick: Oh yeah.
Bennett: They've modernized it and so forth. Isn't that a very pretty building?
Sheldrick: Beautiful, yes, beautiful.
Bennett: Those neat windows, don't you like that?
Sheldrick: Glory, you know on Judgement Day when these old powdermen are coming back, they're not going to recognize it. They say we're going to say, "And Glory be to God, I thought it was Heaven. I used to tell our girls, how you see right down in that valley, when God made Heaven, that's where he put what was left over." And they would look up at me with their eyes they believed it, Peg, they were little things.
Bennett: Oh, that's neat.
Sheldrick: Now that, isn't it something? Oh my dear, even the geography of it has changed.
Bennett: Changed, yes it has, I'm sure. That’ s why I was delighted to see the picture.
Sheldrick: And you know what I remembered while you were in there, there were a reservoir up here, and it joined the cemetery.
Bennett: A reservoir?
Sheldrick: Now, what it was for, I don't know.
Bennett: Now, see the cemetery is behind that wall, on the other side there.
Sheldrick: Yes, well there were a reservoir and this family lived in what we called, this here, the Upper Banks, and their name was Godfrey. And this little boy was coming home from school, and whatever happened, whether he - I don't know, I can't remember whether there were a fence around it or not, but he drowned in it on his way home from school. He went to St. Joseph's at the time - Johnny Godfrey. And I remember, you know - of course in those days, Peg, everybody's trouble was their neighbor's, you know, when the neighbor's - was your trouble.
Bennett: That's true, I think.
Sheldrick: Isn't it - people don't have...
Bennett: No, it's very different, everybody minds their own business, so to speak, and you don't...
Sheldrick: And you don't know whether it's the right thing or not.
Bennett: Okay, here's the approach again, that's the little building that you mentioned.
Sheldrick: Oh yeah.
Bennett: See, it would be the....
Sheldrick: The office building.
Bennett: In there.
Sheldrick: Isn't that - even that don't look the same.
Bennett: Well, no, just the same stone, that’ s the only thing I can say, that it really, if this was winter, there's one place on the road that can really see a little bit more of the, when you come down, no, there's too many trees out, but the mansion is right there.
Sheldrick: And you know, I was trying to think of some of those families, there were Moore's, Dougherty – there were two or three, at least three, I said two, but I think there were three, and there were another one I thought of and I can't think of, you know. Now isn't this something?
Bennett: Well, you'll, I think every once in a while something's gonna pop into your mind.
Sheldrick: Yeah, yeah.
Bennett: That's the cemetery, right there.
Sheldrick: Yeah, yes. Now I remember going through this cemetery and down in the far corner on your right, right against the wall, there's a flat marker on the grave, and it's a French name, and what, I think the first is Louis, I'm not sure of that, but he worked for one of the du Pont's for years and years, and he died and he had no relatives and they buried him, and whatever his name is and whoever, oh this is years and years ago, Peg, no wonder I can't remember, that he had been in his employ for so many years, and there's some dates on it. And as I remember it, when you go in, you make a left hand turn and it's a way down in the far corner. Now this is the end, Bobby Carpenter owned this side, does he still live there?
Bennett: Yes, I think so.
Sheldrick: Wagoner's Row, that’ s where all the wagoners lived along there, the men that drove the wagons - Wagoners Row, yeah.
Bennett: There was a, wasn't there a trolley stop right out there?
Sheldrick: Yes, right down there with the ice cream stand alongside of it. Then this is R. R. M. Carpenter's see.
Bennett: On this side?
Sheldrick: Yeah, they tore that house down I'm sure. That's -- some of the help lived there -- McLoughlan's and different ones lived along there, Abernathy's. Peg, I'm not much good at remembering names, you know.
Bennett: I think you're doing very well.
Sheldrick: Now this is what we called Buck Road, right?
Bennett: Yes, that's where you were, on Buck Road. And this is where the minister lived, on Buck Road.
Sheldrick: Oh, okay.
Bennett: And then they moved, they built the house. What was his name, Munds, was it Munds – M-U-N-D-S?
Sheldrick: I can't tell you, I should know, but I don't. I've heard some of those names, and it sounds sort of familiar, but I'm not sure. There was, you know, different ones. Yeah, and his name was Ashton, I remember that as well. And I ran around, you know, this girl, she was a friend of name and her name was Mary Dougherty, and her Aunt Sally lived on Buck Road and they have since torn her house down. Now this is where - this is St. Joseph's lower cemetery. And then, that's where my Mother and Father are buried.
Bennett: On that side?
Sheldrick: And my brothers, yeah. And then, I think he was from the South, something in Georgia I believe, but, I'm not quite sure of that. They have added to this house too. And the Casey's lived along here. And this is Hallock du Pont, we used to go in there and pick mulberries.
Bennett: This is the, mulberries in there, yes, see that's the gate house.
Sheldrick: Yeah.
Bennett: That's Squirrel Run actually, right? Back in there.
Sheldrick: Yeah, no, Squirrel Run is down, now wait a minute.
Bennett: It backs up into there.
Sheldrick: Yes, that's what we called Keyes’ Hill Hill.
Bennett: Okay, which is Keyes’ Hill Hill, right here? That we're on?
Sheldrick: No, this is Barley Mill Road.
Bennett: Yes, that's right.
Sheldrick: That we're on now.
Bennett: Where is Keyes’ Hill Hill then?
Sheldrick: Keyes’ Hill Hill is, it runs from Squirrel Run up to Hallock du Pont's house. Hallock du Pont's house sits at the top of Keyes’ Hill Hill.
Bennett: Okay, alright, I've heard of Keyes’ Hill Hill...
Sheldrick: You don't hear about it anymore, you don't remember it, nobody ever mentions it.
Bennett: No, didn't know the name.
Sheldrick: Now this is the bridge. There were two houses here, this is where Joe worked, at the Record Building.
Bennett: There? Okay, now this is the Barley Mill...
Sheldrick: Yeah, this goes into Squirrel Run and around. And see, then, Hallock is up on the hill.
Bennett: You see, here's the Machine Shop.
Sheldrick: Yeah. And the road went right along those windows, right underneath those windows.
Bennett: Well, it still does, see? I’ ll take you that way first, and then we'll just turn around, you know.
Sheldrick: This is what they called The Point, no, no, what did they, the Head Gates. This was a swimming hole and they called this the Head Gate.
Bennett: Right here at the entrance to the Museum?
Sheldrick: Right here, yeah.
Bennett: Is called the Head Gate?
Sheldrick: The Head Gate, why, I don't know, I don't know that.
Bennett: Well, maybe because of the main gates or first gates or something, I don't know.
Sheldrick: I don't know. And this is the Machine Shop of course. And we skated up here, we'd skate all the way from Breck's Mill up here. Where's the island?
Bennett: Okay were, you mean Holly?
Sheldrick: Yeah, Holly Island. It didn't seem to be this far, Peg.
Bennett: well, just wait until we turn around.
Sheldrick: I was younger then. Isn't that funny?
Bennett: See, there's the other...
Sheldrick: Yeah.
Bennett: Okay, I have to turn around here, I can't go beyond this, but there's
Sheldrick: Yeah. And this at one time was a woolen mill.
Bennett: Yes, that's right.
Sheldrick: There's Holly Island, isn't it? Right there! Because it was before you come to the dam, I know that. And they fixed up the front of that building too. And the race. And this is new. This is, used to be a picking store, I forget not what it was.
Bennett: Was what?
Sheldrick: They used to pick something.
Bennett: Oh, cotton or...
Sheldrick: Cotton - a picking house or whatever they called it. Yeah, for the cotton. See, it was formerly a cotton mill years ago.
Bennett: And now it's the gift shop.
Sheldrick: And there's a gift shop there now?
Bennett: Yes.
Sheldrick: Oh, it's a gift shop now. Hagley Store.
Bennett: See, gifts and so forth.
Sheldrick: Yeah, isn't that, oh, that wasn't there, I know that.
Bennett: And that, see, was for selling tickets, but they don't use that anymore. - Memories of Hodgson's woolen mill; Swimming in the Brandywine CreekKeywords: Barlow's Mill; Breck's Mill; Hagee's tavern; Hodgson Bros. woolen mill; Sam Frizzell's store; Street railroad's; Swimming; Thunder Gust Run; Walker's MillTranscript: Sheldrick: But the Hodgson’ s ran this and also Walker, the one at Walker's Banks. There were two brothers, they were English.
Bennett: Oh, I didn't know there were two.
Sheldrick: One was Bill and Dick, and Dick ran this one and Bill ran the one at Walker's Mill, on Walker's Banks and it was formerly Barlow's Mill before it was Hodgson's Mill, you know, it was Barlow's. And then it was Hodgson's, and we'd skate around that island and back down to Breck's Mill again. And that seemed an awful long distance.
Bennett: Now is this the island right in here?
Sheldrick: Yeah, I think so.
Bennett: Okay.
Sheldrick: Then the bridge came along, and changed the whole contour of the thing. And there were two houses up at the bottom of Barley Mill. We come down here on the sled.
Bennett: Well, that's the two houses that are in there.
Sheldrick: Yeah, Seitz lived in one and Callahan lived in the other. And Callahan's lived up in the Upper Banks. They were another family that lived up there, and this is the Christofer house. Now this is where Dougherty's and this was two houses at one time. And McLaughlin's lived in this end and Dougherty's lived at the other.
Bennett: And then do you remember when the Jones's lived here?
Sheldrick: Yes, they lived right here in this one.
Bennett: In this one here which is now like the modern part?
Sheldrick: This end, and it seemed to me you went down, this has been...
Bennett: They changed the...
Sheldrick: Filled in because the trolley car ran almost up to the porch along here. It's on that picture that, you know, and this was a, this is a new building back here, it was just, this was what we called a summer kitchen. And in the summertime your kerosene stove would be put out there and you done all your cooking out there. Now this is what Bill du Pont has an office on, right?
Bennett: It's something about Ducks Unlimited or some sort of a business, but I'm not sure just what it is.
Sheldrick: Well, it was Bill who had the doing of it anyway. There used to be an old springhouse sit along, right about there I would say.
Bennett: And that's with Long Row?
Sheldrick: Yeah, we just passed Long Row. Long Row was above the C.I.D. House.
Bennett: Okay, right above.
Sheldrick: And then there's a foundation in along here somewhere where it was Frizzell's Store.
Bennett: Okay. Now I would like to see where Frizzell's exactly was.
Sheldrick: And just about, like in here, you know, I don't think that the foundation is even there now.
Bennett: Well, maybe we'll find it because we're not quite up to Breck's Lane yet. See, now see here comes Walker's and there's Breck's right there, and here's the falls.
Sheldrick: Yeah. Well, it would be right up there further and right in the side...
Bennett: There's a fence, could it be right here where this fence is marked off? There's a big stone, big black...
Sheldrick: No, uh-huh, no it had burned down, Peggy. Then on this side, below this wall here, see this is where we went into Breck's Mill, and there were a race along - it's still there.
Bennett: Yep, it's still there, uh-huh.
Sheldrick: Yeah, and I, then, I'm trying to think, we'd go over that bridge, we used to dance in there.
Bennett: Yes.
Sheldrick: And there were houses - here's where there were an old building along here that burnt down, right here.
Bennett: You mean right in front of Breck's Mill here?
Sheldrick: Yes, right in the side of Breck's Mill and it was laboratory. Now this is the Toomey House.
Bennett: Yes, now we're gonna go down in here.
Sheldrick: Oh, Heaven.
Bennett: Okay, now there..
Sheldrick: Now this is what we called The Point, right here, we...
Bennett: This point, it almost looks straight across at that oval at Walker's Mill.
Sheldrick: Yeah, that was The Point.
Bennett: The Point, alright.
Sheldrick: It seemed to me it went out in a bigger point than that. And this what we call, see this run down here?
Bennett: The little water here under the bridge, yeah.
Sheldrick: Under here, that was Thunder Gust Run.
Bennett: Thunder Gust Run. Did you name it?
Sheldrick: No, no -- I guess that came before my time. Now, Peggy, something was before my time. And there were houses along here.
Bennett: Okay, and do you remember the mill that was here, no it had burned before, there was a mill here.
Sheldrick: There were a mill here?
Bennett: It burned. It burned before you were born.
Sheldrick: I don't ever remember it. Now they were houses along here.
Bennett: On this side?
Sheldrick: And Harkins lived in one and Bairds lived in another and, there were three, and Gilson lived in another along here. Now, but I don't remember this bank, you know, thing. And Girlie, there's the end of the mill, see the end of that mill?
Bennett: Now wait just a minute, show me, I see this part, then beyond it, is that still the same part of that mill there?
Sheldrick: Yeah, the belfry, you see. And then there were a little extension out there - that may be it, I'm not sure.
Bennett: Yes, I think so.
Sheldrick: But, we came down the side here and right at about where that tree, the white tree is, was Girlie.
Bennett: It's really making a V now, the big, do you mean the big tree with the two trunks?
Sheldrick: No, I mean the bush with the white, it looked like white flowers.
Bennett: Alright, okay, right after that.
Sheldrick: And that is Girlie. And then right in here was Sandy.
Bennett: On the side, there was a Minnie...
Sheldrick: Minnie, now that - Minnie's down there around the curve like. And right in the middle of the pool, of the creek - not exactly in the middle, but just, that would be Minnie. And we were up there -- see that place up there?
Bennett: That's Hagee's, believe it or not.
Sheldrick: That's Hagee's?
Bennett: No wait, the next one down is Hagee's. Believe it or not, it's changed.
Sheldrick: Yes, yes. That's Hagee's, yep.
Bennett: Yep. Look - look at the babies, with the, see the geese right here?
Sheldrick: Oh, yeah.
Bennett: Can you see the babies?
Sheldrick: Yes, yes.
Bennett: There's two little babies in between them.
Sheldrick: Yes, I see them, yes.
Bennett: There's more of them over there on the side, aren’ t they cute?
Sheldrick: They look like they're getting in - yeah, there's another one over there, or is that a big black bird?
Bennett: No, they're pigeons, they're something else.
Sheldrick: They're blackbirds.
Bennett: But there's one of the babies up on that trunk, on that tree, do you see it? Oh now, that's a squirrel.
Sheldrick: I can't believe that that is Hagee's.
Bennett: Well, can you see the green door down there? Believe me, they worked on it for over a year. I'm going to take you down there too.
Sheldrick: Oh, I can't believe it.
Bennett: Let me get my pencil and paper.
Sheldrick: But that is Minnie and then just -- that's telling me my keys are in the ignition, that little bell.
Sheldrick: This is where the big rock is, Peg, but it's closer to the other side. It's not directly in the middle and it would be just about - I don't know.
Bennett: You know what we can do, we can drive up there and come back down and come back in here again.
Sheldrick: But it would be right, I know that that's Minnie because the creek went around there, but oh, those trees and and everything down there, you can't see an arch for - under that bridge, but there used to be an arch that we walked through to go down to Indian Rock.
Bennett: Where was the arch?
Sheldrick: Under the bridge.
Bennett: Under the bridge?
Sheldrick: To the side, in the wall that goes over, I'll show you as you come down Rising Run Hill. And you got out of the water just below, you weren't around to swim at Indian Rock, it was too deep.
Bennett: And dangerous?
Sheldrick: It was definitely, you had to be an excellent swimmer to go down there.
Bennett: Okay, so these two trees that are here...
Sheldrick: That tree, it would be
Bennett: Is right before that.
Sheldrick: Below that, you see it would be, that corner, you know, Brandywine goes around and then there were two houses on this side that you went down a path, and we went from our house down.
Bennett: Okay, now - let's get back, there's the double tree, the bushes to the left of that is Girlie, and it's really sandy, like a sandy beach there.
Sheldrick: Yes, yes. Yeah, it was definitely sandy.
Bennett: And you tell that, really, in the wintertime, you can see it more. In fact, you can see a little bit of it there, it's lighter and smooth.
Sheldrick: Yeah, you could see it.
Bennett: And now, so you see where the current is to the right of that double tree?
Sheldrick: Yes.
Bennett: You see where the current is making ripples?
Sheldrick: Yes.
Bennett: And then it gets smooth?
Sheldrick: Yes.
Bennett: Is it in that area that...
Sheldrick: It is in that area there, yes.
Bennett: Where it goes back?
Sheldrick: And you would swim, yeah, swim out to that. And it was further from the big rock to Minnie than it was from Girlie to the big rock. See, while it wasn't directly in the middle, it leaned more this way.
Bennett: It was more on the left hand side, closer to Girlie.
Sheldrick: Closer to the swimming hole.
Bennett: Okay, now, so it would be like a third of the way over, would you say?
Sheldrick: No, more than a third, maybe well, maybe three quarters.
Bennett: No, I mean, okay, that would be a quarter? Okay, okay.
Sheldrick: Yeah, yeah.
Bennett: A quarter, from that side over there, about a quarter of the way?
Sheldrick: Yeah, yeah.
Bennett: See where the ripples are?
Sheldrick: Yes, I can see, yeah.
Bennett: Would you say maybe where those ripples are?
Sheldrick: No, this side of it.
Bennett: This side of it?
Sheldrick: Yeah, it would be this...
Bennett: Our side of it, okay.
Sheldrick: And see, it was almost directly... ...ripp1es, channel looking affair. That was nothing but stones, great big stones, you know.
Bennett: Stones. Okay, you said that...
Sheldrick: And you couldn't, you'd have to get out and walk through this arch and go below the bridge to get to Indian Rock.
Bennett: Okay, uh-huh. But now, Minnie, which is on this side...
Sheldrick: Minnie was on this side of the Brandywine...
Bennett: And you said around that curve before the bridge, or is it on this side?
Bennett: No, it's right here, as far as I can see.
Sheldrick: Where the, shall we go past Hagee's.
Bennett: Yes, if you want to.
Sheldrick: Okay, let's do that. And I'll show you, this, you know, it was almost opposite the big rock and I'm judging by the mill how far the mill would have been. And three or four of us could stand on that thing.
Bennett: On the rock?
Sheldrick: On the rock, yes.
Bennett: Oh, that was a big rock, you're not kidding, oh, okay.
Sheldrick: And we'd dive off it-
Bennett: Uh-huh, into, isn't that a beautiful sight?
Sheldrick: Yes, gorgeous.
Bennett: It really is. - Identifying who lived in Hagley's workers villages; Identifying who lived in the outlying areasKeywords: Alexis I. du Pont School (Wilmington, Del.); Cavanaugh's store; Hagee's tavern; Thunder Gust RunTranscript: Sheldrick: Not much money, Peg, but a lot of fun. Now this was Thunder Gust Run.
Bennett: Okay, Thunder Gust Run.
Sheldrick: Now this is where Toomey's lived.
Bennett: On Breck's...
Sheldrick: Yeah, I don't know whether anyone lives in that or not.
Bennett: It looks like it...
Sheldrick: It looks like it's occupied.
Bennett: I would say so, yes.
Sheldrick: But you see, Jenny died and I don't -- now this was a store at one time. I remember...
Bennett: Right here on 1619 Main was a store?
Sheldrick: Cavanna's -- Cavanaugh you say, we say Cavanna. And this, Mrs. Cavanaugh was a Macklem - Macklem as you call them.
Bennett: You said “ Mayclem?”
Sheldrick: We said Macklem, now this is the Bonner house, no that is our house, 'cause there's Hagee's up there. This is our house, and this is where it burnt down. See, where this...
Bennett: Okay, right here at this tree?
Sheldrick: Right at this tree here, see where the gardens are?
Bennett: Yes.
Sheldrick: The gardens are there and this, my mother...
Bennett: Okay, now this is, in other words, where these cars are parked is your house?
Sheldrick: No, this was a hill going up where these cars are parked, because that was our house, and then there were another one...
Bennett: Where that garden is was your house?
Sheldrick: Where this, my grandmother lived at this end and then this, where this thing would be our house, there...
Bennett: The stone wall there?
Sheldrick: Yeah, would be our house, and then my grandmother lived here. But look at that, and that's all of the, you know, I guess...
Bennett: Did you have that kind of stone front?
Sheldrick: No, yes, it was all stone, it was all stone, but you went up to a porch that ran across the two -- the three houses.
Bennett: Oh, okay, I know you said it faced into the back.
Sheldrick: Yes, see and then you went up the hill. And this was the saloon at one time, here, this is that Toy Saloon you know.
Bennett: Oh, this is Toy's, okay, so Toy's was at No. 6, I guess, four, five, six, okay.
Sheldrick: Yeah, and then people by the name of Norris lived here, and Dougherty's and, no, I'll think of it in a minute, just give me -- bear with me. Dougherty lived there at one time, Norris, and then between here, between this, yeah, this was the hill that went up, just as it is now, and on this hill was a drugstore and a barber shop and you went, between the barber shop and the hill was a -- over the store was a Redmen's meeting hall. And it was built in the side of the hill, even the hill doesn't look as big as it used to. Then there were, they were all along here and then this was a store.
Bennett: Okay, now can you see the back of where Hagee's was in there?
Sheldrick: Yes, yes.
Bennett: See the, okay, the foundation?
Sheldrick: Yes, and that was a building back there, you see, that looks like the ruins of it, you know, and see this is the way you went up into that.
Bennett: Up to the stores into that...
Sheldrick: The same as you went up, back of our house, just the same way. But look what they have done to this, my dear.
Bennett: Now in between the four windows up in the second story there, that's where there used to be a door, do you remember that, 'cause they left it there for a while.
Sheldrick: Yes, and there were a porch around it.
Bennett: Yes, u-huh, uh-huh. Now this part is new that they've added on, all of this. See that's all new.
Sheldrick: Yeah, yeah, that's all new. What are they going to do with this?
Bennett: Well, I think that's part of their house and I think this is...
Sheldrick: And this was a barn, there were a barn along here.
Bennett: See that's a garage.
Sheldrick: Yes, uh-huh, well there were a barn here. And then, Peg, there were a row of houses along here and then you went up another hill at the side and you went across like, well you have seen, they were these little frame houses sit up on here.
Bennett: Up top there on that wall you mean?
Sheldrick: Two levels, there were two levels like, and then, of course...
Bennett: What was that called up there, do you know?
Sheldrick: We just - it just didn't have a name as far as I, you know, and all these rocks, and then there were another, up on top of the hill was another row of houses where the Macklem's lived and Mains and Kelley's and a family by the name of Carpenter lived up there. We used to go through there to go up the steps to the Tower, see...
Bennett: Okay, uh-huh, it's shorter, a much shorter way.
Sheldrick: You could go in here and go up the steps into Rockford Park. Then there were houses in here, along here, but Mrs. Copeland tore these down. Now that's where Oliver Wilson and Kathleen used to live, and there were houses in here, Tony's and, that lived here. Dougherty's lived there. There were two houses there, they have torn down.
Bennett: Yes, they've, then there have been, they're new houses there they just built in the area.
Sheldrick: Yes, well you see, the McDermit, yeah Harriet McDermit lived in that house, McDonald, McDonald lived in that house and she left that to her niece and she, in turn, sold it to Tower Hill.
Bennett: Well, I certainly had a tour, didn't I? Yeah, well I'm gonna take you down Breck's Lane again, or we haven't been down that yet, turn around on the highway here. And then we'll just look again for Minnie and see if I can get the right perspective for that. Actually we should have done this, maybe in the winter because we could have seen more.
Sheldrick: The trees, the leaves are on the trees. I remember when this house, there were a house here, Lammot du Pont lived in it.
Bennett: Where?
Sheldrick: And he lived, he moved from John, Bill Raskos house on the Kennett Pike down here.
Bennett: Okay, well that, I think the entrance, that's what I was asking you about before.
Sheldrick: Uh- huh, and see, you can go in here and all these houses are in and back there, have you ever been in there?
Bennett: No, in the houses you mean?
Sheldrick: Yeah.
Bennett: U-huh.
Sheldrick: You can make this turn here, and you - go ahead, Peg.
Bennett: I can't because of what's behind me.
Sheldrick: You can't do it now. You go in there and the Copelands and the Carpenters and William K. du Pont.
Bennett: Go in there...
Sheldrick: I don't know -- Laird's. I thought that was a private road.
Bennett: It is definitely, but that wouldn't make any difference.
Sheldrick: Then Ernest and Felix lived along here, and Alexis I. du Pont School, of course. They never changed the front of this school, they kept it the way it was and built in back, see you can see, you know when our girls came here to school, they were, you know, went back. And this was the Stahl farm.
Bennett: Over here?
Sheldrick: Yeah, that was the Stahl farm. We used to go in there.
Bennett: Okay, now we're going down Breck's Lane.
Sheldrick: Breck's Lane -- now there were houses here.
Bennett: Isn't that Raskob here?
Sheldrick: Raskob is there, yes. And this -- Casey -- this is a new house, but Casey lived there. And before Casey, my Mother used to tell us, that there were a doctor lived in there, his name was Greenleaf, now isn't that a name! And then Mrs. William K. du Pont built those houses, then people by the name of Evans lived on this side, and Foster lived on this side which is all - that's all, you know, have been, what, restored or whatever?
Bennett: Well I think so. Now were there more houses here would you say?
Sheldrick: Now here's where you go into the Raskob place, this is the back way in. This, Brown's lived there...
Bennett: Let me pull over because.,.
Sheldrick: This is a new house here.
Bennett: Well, I think it's just be redone, see.
Sheldrick: No, there were a frame house.
Bennett: You know what I think, look at it, they've taken two houses and made one out of it, see?
Sheldrick: Oh yeah, they may have.
Bennett: Don't you think?
Sheldrick: Looks that way.
Bennett: That would be my guess.
Sheldrick: And then this is, I know definitely, now this isn't by any means a new house, as in comparison to the others.
Bennett: Yes that's true.
Sheldrick: Oh, I would say it's at least fifty, that old anyway, maybe older. And then Tom Dougherty lived here and before he, Mathewson lived there. And - now it's been a long time since I was, went this slow. Now see, this is all one house now, but this was two houses.
Bennett: I think so too, yes.
Sheldrick: I know it was because Mathewson lived in one, and before Tom Dougherty moved there, there were a man and his wife, his name was Gibeson lived in that. Isn't this, honestly.
Bennett: It's lovely in here, isn't it, it really is.
Sheldrick: Isn't it, oh yes, it's heaven.
Bennett: Here's another one that...
Sheldrick: Yeah, well this is a new house, this is definitely a new house.
Bennett: Yes, I would say.
Sheldrick: And there were nothing here, nothing at all. And then - this house, the earliest memory, people by the name of Flanigan lived in that house there, you know, in this little house. And it looks to me like they have added to it.
Bennett: I would say so cause see the bricks...
Sheldrick: I know that it, and then I know that one definitely because that porch was never there or this round. Wait'll we see what was here. And that's new, that...
Bennett: We've got a fence.
Sheldrick: Then about maybe from here down further, the entrance here, over here was a house, two houses that used to be Alfred I. du Pont's, you know that man with the high wall?
Bennett: Yep.
Sheldrick: Well, he lived in here, that's where his house was.
Bennett: Swamp Hall.
Sheldrick: Yeah, exactly. And then that Flanigan was coachman for Alfred I. du Pont and this was his barn over here and they made two houses out of it. - The Hagley Cooper Shop; Identifying who lived in Hagley's worker villages; Floods on the Brandywine Creek; Swimming on the Brandywine Creek; Perry Ferraro's accident at HagleyKeywords: Alexis I. du Pont School (Wilmington, Del.); Brandywine Creek; Breck's Mill; Cooper Shop; Hagee's tavern; Hagley Yard; Industrial accidents; Laird, W. W. (William Winder), 1910-1989; SwimmingTranscript: Sheldrick: And then you went -- this is what -- there's a building in there that we called the Cooper Shop and they made kegs for the powder in there.
Bennett: This is, you know, what would you say, before the first World War.
Sheldrick: Yeah, I'd say 1910, '13, somewhere in there. About 1912, 1913. Now this house, there were two houses here, Gallagher lived in one, I'll have to think about who lived in the other, but Gallagher lived in the open one. And then there were two here, there were two here and they made that into one and Joe Hackendorn lived in that, my cousin. Chick Laird owned all of this, then - I can't think who, but oh, they fixed that up beautifully since Joe died. Joe worked for Chick Laird. This was two houses, is it still two?
Bennett: Well, I don't know, I think it's just one, don't you?
Sheldrick: And Buchanan lived in one and Felton lived in the other. Now you see here, this was two houses, and Craig lived in this side. Mr. Craig lived with his daughter.
Bennett: There's two doors there, that still is two houses, I guess.
Sheldrick: Taylor lived in that house and Buchanan lived in this one. Then before that, before Buchanan's lived in this one, they lived up there and moved down here. And then a man by the name of Riley that was a teacher at Alexis I du Pont moved up there. Now this is where Mary Dougherty lived, this was where my friend, Mary Dougherty, lived. This is right next to the corner, I remember. Yeah.
Bennett: Was this two houses?
Sheldrick: This was two houses and Mary Dougherty lived, and her mother and father and grandmother, she was the fifth generation in this house. And Mrs. Gibbons lived next door and when Mrs. Gibbons died, Chick Laird turned it all into one. Dougherty's lived in the two of them then. And Mrs. Dougherty said when they needed the room they didn't have it. And then this was two houses.
Bennett: Where Jenny Toomey lived?
Sheldrick: Where Jenny Toomey and Ella Fitzharris lived on this side. And this was all fenced in and a garden alongside of it that don't look anything like it used to, not a bit.
Bennett: The Gibbons, was that any relation to the Seitz?
Sheldrick: No, no, no. No, she was no relation, I think, this Mrs. Gibbons, her name was Harkin. Now we go around here again.
Bennett: Okay, Let's go over and sit in that parking lot again.
Sheldrick: Now you see there, it's right opposite, you know.
Bennett: Is it opposite Hagee's?
Sheldrick: No, it's opposite our house.
Bennett: Okay, okay, which is down just a little bit.
Sheldrick: Yeah, and that, I knew because we used to sit on the rock and my Mother would be standing on the porch and we'd be hollering and waving at her. There's the duck again, there it is, it's right directly...
Bennett: Really, across from...
Sheldrick: From that ripple.
Bennett: Yeah it is, you're right. It's across from the ripple...
Sheldrick: And like you could see my Mother, you know...
Bennett: About - what did we decide, a quarter or a third? Actually the river gets wider right there.
Sheldrick: Yes it does, it always did. And my Father would built a -- it seems to me he done it every spring -- build a diving board on this side.
Bennett: You talked about that as I remember. Okay, I do remember that.
Sheldrick: Yeah -- isn't it -- but I remember these houses being along here and when they â € ” in the spring, you know, well earlier than this, the ice would break and there would be a flood of -- oh -- and it would come and the people that lived in these houses had to move to the second floor, move everything up.
Bennett: Down where you lived and also along -up that Long Row, by Long Row?
Sheldrick: No, not where we lived, it didn't come up as far as where we lived, just along the creek here, these houses.
Bennett: On this side, okay.
Sheldrick: But I said Baird's and Gilson's, you know, that they lived along there. I can remember my Father going down to help the Corrigan boys move the kitchen range out the back door, around and up and in the front door.
Bennett: Oh, imagine!
Sheldrick: And then they would stay there until the creek would abate, you know, and then he would go down and help them to put it downstairs again. And they would have to bring the carpeting, rag carpet on the floor, have to bring that up. Oh, what was good about the good old days.
Bennett: You were just used to it. I remember reading about somebody, that a big block of ice got into their house and they had to get somebody to help them get it out of there.
Sheldrick: Yeah, you would think it would be there on the Fourth of July.
Bennett: They said it was real big.
Sheldrick: However it got in the door you wouldn't know, I remember that. Not only once, but very often, oh dear, and I mean it would be a flood, you know, it wasn't just a high creek, it would be a flood. The dam would be level, you wouldn't know there were a dam there.
Bennett: Oh boy, oh boy, that was high.
Sheldrick: And the mill, it would get in the mill, you know.
Bennett: I guess, well I think that's probably why part of that, 'cause you can see water lines in different places, yeah.
Sheldrick: And Breck's Mill would be flooded in the bottom.
Bennett: I'm not surprised, the whole thing when you think about it. I need the windshield wiper on there so we can see out.
Sheldrick: And you could hear that, and you know they knew when it began to get like, what would you say, the January thaw, you know. And it would be like a warm spell around the middle of January or close into February, there would be, maybe we would have rain and snow and different things, and the ice would crack. And oh my dear, you never saw such ice. I think our winters then were much colder than they are now.
Bennett: I think so. You don’ t really see too much of this frozen that much. It freezes fast I know.
Sheldrick: Well it never did, we never, rarely skated down here, rarely. We had to go in at Breck's Mill because this never froze over, Peg. I said never, but it did, it would take very, very cold weather. I remember on Sunday my Father come in and he said, "Let's go skating, Catherine." They were skating down here, and my Mother, my Mother's cousins were coming out to our house for dinner, and I said, "I'll set the table, you go on down, I'll set the table and get things, help Mom to get things ready." Peg, I was just about ready to get my skates when my Father came in, he had fallen through the ice.
Bennett: Oh my gosh, that's funny. He didn't think it was funny I'm sure.
Sheldrick: No he didn't.
Bennett: I just drew this little bit of a sketch, that, believe it or now, is supposed to be that tree there.
Sheldrick: Yes.
Bennett: And the bushes are here and that's Girlie, right?
Sheldrick: Yeah, that's Girlie.
Bennett: Okay, now I've made that hump there, and this is the water, if I can make the water come out like that, would you say that the big rock was....
Sheldrick: Was right about here - there, right about there. That's almost gonna be in the middle. But definitely to this side, would be definitely.
Bennett: Okay. Okay, then let's make it over here a little bit more.
Sheldrick: Yes, about like that, yeah.
Bennett: Now, where would, okay, and then see the water, the ground goes out there, and it seems to come wider here before it narrows and goes down this way under the bridge.
Sheldrick: Yeah, it does seem to come in.
Bennett: Comes in and goes out.
Sheldrick: Goes out again, and where it goes out, there were an arch under the road. It was under the road before you came to the entrance of the bridge. This at one time was a covered bridge.
Bennett: Yeah -- arch under the road...
Sheldrick: Yeah, and you walked through there.
Bennett: You would walk through to... Down to Indian Rock. I wonder where these names came from?
Sheldrick: I know, maybe it had Indian signs on it or something.
Bennett: Or markings, you know, or maybe somebody thought if they stood there they could look like an Indian. And so Minnie would be directly across, I'm looking at those flowers in that garden...
Sheldrick: Yeah, about like that, yes, would be right there.
Bennett: Almost - like right here would be Minnie?
Sheldrick: Yeah.
Bennett: Does that seem okay?
Sheldrick: Yeah.
Bennett: If this is Girlie's up here, that's the tree, big rock, so you swum that way?
Sheldrick: And you see, when you went in swimming to Minnie, then you swam to the big rock and you could always tell it was there, because there were always somebody on it, you know.
Bennett: And you said it would hold three people?
Sheldrick: It would, yes, three could stand, I wouldn't say three of us would fit on it, but we would stand on it and jump off, you know, dive off.
Bennett: That must have been quite a time.
Sheldrick: It was, but when I think of the inconveniences we had, well of course...
Bennett: Well, you didn't know any different.
Sheldrick: When you don't know any different, why what -- who had electric, you know.
Bennett: That's right, that's right, that was nothing unusual.
Sheldrick: No, and then we got electric light. We never had water in the house, we always had the pump. I think they had the pump even when the place burned down.
Bennett: You were lucky in that way. Okay, shall we go on now?
Sheldrick: Well this was an excursion, as I said before.
Bennett: Well, it's fun. I enjoy it, yeah.
Sheldrick: And you see that race, it goes across on the side of Breck's Mill, it came out and flowed into the creek, into the run or the creek.
Bennett: Okay, yes, u-huh.
Sheldrick: I guess the race, of course, was oh, what would you say - water driven, some of the machinery.
Bennett: Yes, u-huh.
Sheldrick: The machinery would be - or whatever.
Bennett: I would say so, yes. Who - what did you tell me about that carpet beater?
Sheldrick: On Breck's Mill -- on Breck's Lane.
Bennett: On Breck's Lane, okay.
Sheldrick: On Breck's Lane. And isn't it strange, I can't remember his name either, but I'll think of it.
Bennett: Oh, but you sewed the bags and took it down to him to have them woven. And they changed the front on that house, that used to be a porch on the front of Cavanaugh's house.
Bennett: So it's really right here.
Sheldrick: Yeah. Now see, this was our house, it would be right there. And there were two - one house here, and we went down the side of that house to Minnie.
Bennett: Was there steps or was it just a path?
Sheldrick: No, no -- oh, to the house, yes.
Bennett: No, I meant down, just a path that went down.
Sheldrick: It was a boardwalk. Oh, a certain way down, and then it was just ground from then on, a path- And how about this.
Bennett: Yep, see that's all planted in flowers now, bushes.
Sheldrick: And you can’ t...
Bennett: I don't know who owns it, I have no idea.
Sheldrick: I don't know who owns this along here. Now you see, now this is where you went over, and before you got to the bridge, was this arch underneath the...and that seemed to me to be a high wall, Peg.
Bennett: Well, but you know, see that road's changed, if you think of it. They've built it up and I think that all makes a difference.
Sheldrick: Yes, yes, it may be -- and you see there's a tunnel up on top of this.
Bennett: Yes, that's strange though. I understand that this is where Perry Ferraro -- a cart fell over on his -- leg and that's how he lost his leg.
Sheldrick: Oh no, no.
Bennett: Did you hear that?
Sheldrick: No, I never heard that, but he was working for the DuPont Company and...
Bennett: Right on that hill.
Sheldrick: It was an industrial accident, no.
Bennett: Okay, that's what I understood that was.
Sheldrick: He -- whatever happened -- if I knew at the time, I can't remember, you know. But it did happen in what they called the Lower Yard. When you went over the bridge, you made a right hand turn and there were gates there that you went in, and it was the Lower Yard. And they made smokeless powder, and the only thing at the top of the hill was what they called ballistics. And they had a rifle range up there. My uncle worked up there. You know they always said, my Father always said about Uncle Lees, "Get out of his way if he has a gun in his hand for he'll never miss you.” They say when he would go gunning or hunting, you know and things like that, he could -- whatever he shot at, he hit. And that's what he -- and you know, I have the same eye. - Story about calling shots in golf games; Christmas traditions; Description of the family's ceramic Nativity sceneKeywords: Christmas traditions; Christmas trees; Epiphany; Golf; Nativity scenesTranscript: Bennett: Do you?
Sheldrick: Peg, I used -- not so much anymore -- but I used to be able to judge -- wait'll I tell you. We were down at Chris's wedding, and we stayed at this motel, it was called the Maryland Inn, and they had an inside golf hole, you know, green, a green, and I don't know, this boy that was with us, and I said, "David, loan me your club, I want to see if I can still putt." And he handed me the club, and he put three balls down. Well, the first I missed, not by much. He said, "Mrs. Sheldrick, you missed." The third one, the full length of the green, it went in.
Bennett: Oh, good for you.
Sheldrick: Well, we laughed about it, you know. And I said, "Here, David, I can still putt." But you know, Peg, I never could drive.
Bennett: You never did?
Sheldrick: I'd stand up and I would tee that ball, no way would that ever go near the green. If there were a lake, it would go in the lake. It was strange, wasn't it?
Bennett: Yeah, yeah.
Sheldrick: But I could always - I had a good eye for...
Bennett: You got that from your uncle.
Sheldrick: I may have. And you know when we were playing golf, we used to -- in our living room we would put a can in the corner and we'd stand anywhere in the...
Bennett: Now we're talking about your Christmas tree, and you had the same kind of a stand, which was – describe that for me, please.
Sheldrick: As a pyramid, the bottom block would be about, maybe an inch and a half thick, and then it would be maybe a foot square, or maybe a foot and a half square, yes it would be about this, just a foot. And then up until the block was about four inches, you know, there would be about five or six layers up.
Bennett: Steps.
Sheldrick: Yeah, steps up. And then the hole was in the middle, you put your tree down and you wedged it in. And I don't ever remember them tying it back, that it would fall over, they probably did. Then we'd get this moss, this was in later years, you know, after we had grown up to maybe eight, ten. And then we'd get this moss, as big a pieces as we could get, and we'd put that all under the tree. And we'd get rice and make a...
Bennett: A road?
Sheldrick: A road up to the tree. And this house that my Father had built, it was there, you know. And then we always had a manger, you know, a little manger, back in the corner. And then we'd put the three Kings in and every morning we'd bring them up a little bit to the manger.
Bennett: Oh, that sounds very nice.
Sheldrick: And then the sixth of January, after the sixth of January, everything disappeared, you never took down the tree or the decorations until after the Epiphany, and then it away for the next year Isn't it strange, you --know, but I don't know whether, I don't know where that custom, it's from an Irish custom, my Father must have brought that with him when he and my Mother were married. Now whether it was a French custom or not, I don't know.
Bennett: It could very well be, I don't know.
Sheldrick: I don't know either. I guess we just took everything for granted. Now you hunt up everything.
Bennett: I think this is true, yes, it's good. Okay, I'm going to turn this off again.
Sheldrick: But you get the rice or whatever, and that makes the walk up into the house or whatever. We used to have little pieces of mirror that we put little china ducks on.
Bennett: China ducks on the -- so then you didn't have a snow scene, and you had a...
Sheldrick: I never remember a snow scene.
Bennett: Not if you used the moss, it must have been...
Sheldrick: Whatever we had, you know. But I do know that the ducks were kind of like china, you know, or maybe chalk, I don't know. They would swim on the lake.
Bennett: Look at it raining now.
Sheldrick: Right now it's really pouring.
Bennett: Well, shall we wait a few minutes.
Sheldrick: Yeah we might as well. We have to get that drink, Peg, I remembered that.
Bennett: I hadn't thought about that one.
Sheldrick: I can forget where I put, you know, I have an idea, now I could be wrong - I put two cushions that Mary, oh two Christmas cushions that Mary made for me and I put them in the cedar chest at the top of the stairs. I could have put that but I wouldn't take it out of that drawer and put it up there, would I? I don't know why, after all these years, it doesn't... I don't know what, yeah.
Bennett: Well, you could look when you go upstairs sometime.
Sheldrick: And I'll see, I'll find it, it's in the house.
Bennett: It's funny, but you must have thought, well...
Sheldrick: But I just came up out of the cellar, I'll put these here, and I won't forget to show Peggy. When I brought them up, I intended to give them to you. Especially the carpet beater, and then -- did they have one of those - they surely have one.
Bennett: Not like - yes, they have one, but not like yours. I guess they came in different shapes.
Sheldrick: Yeah, yeah.
Bennett: And you said that belonged to...
Sheldrick: I don't know who it belonged to, it was in the house when we moved from 24th, from 30...
Bennett: To 24 maybe?
Sheldrick: No, from 24 to 30...
Bennett: Main Street.
Sheldrick: We moved up the street.
Bennett: Okay.
Sheldrick: I'm sure, I'm positive that that was in the basement, but Ann Christopher didn't remember it.
Bennett: Well, it was probably back in the rafters somewhere.
Sheldrick: It could have been, it could have been. I don't know, but I do know that it wasn't mine.
Bennett: But you know it was in the area. I think it's kind of stopped raining, I don't think...
Sheldrick: And it's so rusted.
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