Interview with Katherine Kindbeiter Hazzard, 1984 March 21 [audio](part 1)

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  • Description of childhood home; Siblings and family; Local taverns and bars
    Keywords: Alsace-Lorraine; Blakeley's tavern; Family; Hagee's tavern; Henry Clay (Del.: Village); Immigration; Joseph Bancroft and Sons Co.; Lawless' tavern; Siblings; Walker's Bank
    Transcript: Lotter: I'm on my way in to Wilmington this morning to interview Katherine Hazzard, a cousin of Ella Fitzharris who also lived in the Hagley area. This morning I'm speaking with Katherine Hazzard who is a cousin of Ella Fitzharris. I'm at her home on Delaware Avenue in Wilmington. We're interested in learning a little bit about what life was like in the small villages located around Hagley. Our primary interests concern the late 19th century and in order to do this, we are asking people who have lived there a few questions. What I'd like to start out with first is just a little bit of your background, your name, your full name.

    Hazzard: My maiden name was Kindbeiter – K-i-n-d-b-e-i-t-e-r.

    Lotter: And where did you live?

    Hazzard: Walker's Bank, as they call it. That picture there.

    Lotter: I was wondering about that picture. Is that the home that's still standing there now?

    Hazzard: Yeah. We lived in this end of it. Ferraros lived in the other end. And different -- Baldos, and Daughertys.

    Lotter: Now facing the picture, you lived in the right or the left end?

    Hazzard: The left end.

    Lotter: The left end, looking at the front of the house?

    Hazzard: Yeah.

    Lotter: It looks like a porch ran –

    Hazzard: Yes, straight across the front.

    Lotter: When you lived there, that's the way it was?

    Hazzard: Um-hum. First it was wooden. They were concrete there.

    Lotter: But when you lived there, it was a wooden porch?

    Hazzard: Yeah. Well, even concrete. But they'd petition all the way up to the ceiling between each house.

    Lotter: I see. So each porch was private.

    Hazzard: Yeah. Then when they put the concrete in, they took it down, I think, and just have a small railing.

    Lotter: Now, your cousin lived in the same building?

    Hazzard: No, she lived down the road farther.

    Lotter: I see, in one of the other houses that are no longer there now.

    Hazzard: Yeah.

    Lotter: Do you remember how many houses were there, how many groups of houses were in Walker's Bank?

    Hazzard – Maybe I do. There was one before this that was torn down. There was one after. Then there was three big yellow houses up on the hill. You know, by the roll mill. Hodgson's Mill there.

    Lotter: I'm not familiar with Hodgson's Mill. Where would that have been located?

    Hazzard: That's the first mill that you go down the hill. DuPont Experimental has it now. And there were three yellow houses and then there were two houses; she lived in the first of that.

    Lotter: That was another group of houses similar to the one you lived in.

    Hazzard: And then there was another row that was torn down. I never knew anybody that lived there. I guess it was shambles then. And then there was a row. Then up through the woods to the keg mill. My grandfather, when he first come over from Alsace-Lorraine -- he wouldn't live under a German emperor -- and he came over to this country and he worked in the powder mills.

    Lotter: This was your grandfather Kindbeiter?

    Hazzard: Yes. And my grandfather Farren worked there, too. My mother's father.

    Lotter: Now what did your grandfathers do in the powder mills?

    Hazzard: Well, my grandfather Kindbeiter always said he was a boss. I don't know what he did. Because he moved down to -- as you go over the bridge. It's altogether different, now, you know. But they lived in that house right at the Experimental Station.

    Lotter: Would this be on the corner of Rising Sun?

    Hazzard: Yes. Across from Rising Sun. Across the crick from Rising Sun. But, of course, I don't remember. He died -- I guess I was about one or two.

    Lotter: And how about your other grandfather Farren?

    Hazzard: He died when -- his family was -- the youngest was about three. And my grandmother raised, let's see -- five of them I guess -- children.

    Lotter: And where did your grandmother Farren live?

    Hazzard: In that house with us after, you know, all our family were gone.

    Lotter: And how about your other grandmother? Did she remain in the same house?

    Hazzard: I never remember seeing her. Kindbeiter.

    Lotter: Well, how about your family, how many were in your family?

    Hazzard: Seven children. We loved it up there. And my children we took them up there every Sunday in the summertime when we'd go swimming back of the mill. Oh, they thought we ought to move up here. All the kids around here would go up with us.

    Lotter: Now, you say there were seven children in your family. When were you born?

    Hazzard: 1910.

    Lotter: 1910. And how many older?

    Hazzard: Three older. I was a twin. I had a twin sister, but she died.

    Lotter: An identical twin?

    Hazzard: No. I had twin boys and neither one. One's on each side of the family. One was a blonde and one was dark.

    Lotter: Now, how about your father?

    Hazzard: He worked a short time there, then he went to work for the railroad. My father wasn't interested in the powder. I don't think his father was.

    Lotter: So, you don't know what he did then?

    Hazzard: No, he worked for the railroad.

    Lotter: But you don't know what he did when he worked at DuPont, at the powder mills.

    Hazzard: No.

    Lotter: And how about your mother?

    Hazzard: I never remember her working, but I guess she worked at Bancrofts before she was married, maybe.

    Lotter: Now her parents were?

    Hazzard: Farren.

    Lotter: The Farrens. Do you ever remember her doing any other work other than housework?

    Hazzard: No.

    Lotter: I'm sure with seven children that kept her pretty busy. Before we get into any more of the interview, I just wondered if by chance you knew of any other people that we might talk to that are still living in the area.

    Hazzard: No, only the Devenney boy but he lives up in Mendenhall.

    Lotter: And how do you spell his name?

    Hazzard: D-e-v-e-n-y I think it is.

    Lotter: Where did he live?

    Hazzard: He lived the road next to us on this side. That picture –

    Lotter: The group, the house before yours.

    Hazzard: After ours was finished.

    Lotter: And also we're interested in any old pictures – anything like that that you might have around that would be helpful to us in our research.

    Hazzard: I gave all mine to my sister. And then some of them ended up with my children.

    Lotter: Well, if you come across any that the children have that we might borrow just to look at or copy, it would be very helpful. We're really interested now in trying -- We know how the powder yards operated and we are really interested now in finding out how the people lived and what everyday family life was like.

    Hazzard: It was really a wonderful place. Everybody helped one another out. Everybody was friendly.

    Lotter: This is the feeling we've gotten from other people.

    Hazzard: Everybody got along good. And on the bridge -- I better not mention it -- A lot of the men would celebrate on Saturday night but they never bothered anybody. We all passed the bridge when we were little and the grown-ups.

    Lotter: Now is that where they were celebrating, on the bridge?

    Hazzard: Yes.

    Lotter: Not in any of the local taverns?

    Hazzard: No. Well, I guess they'd get put out by that time.

    Lotter: What taverns were in the area, do you remember?

    Hazzard: Well, Pat Daugherty had one there. You know where Hagee's is? The next -- downstairs -- it's apartments now. I think John Quinn du Pont's son bought that.

    Lotter: I'm not sure who bought that, but I know they're doing it over and I know exactly where you mean.

    Hazzard: And then up there at St. Joseph’ s right on the corner was Tommy Lawless saloon. And there was one on Rising Sun Lane. Jeff Blakeley's, I think they called it.

    Lotter: Now the one up by St. Joe’ s, was that maybe more Catholics went to that one?

    Hazzard: I don't know. I guess the people of the country stopped in and bought stuff. That's right at Route 100 and Brecks Lane. Barley Mill Lane.
  • Getting groceries and milk delivered; Describing the family home; Looking at pictures in "The Workers' World at Hagley" by Glenn Porter; Siblings
    Keywords: "The Workers' World at Hagley" by Glenn Porter; Du Pont, S. Hallock (Samuel Hallock), 1901-1974; Gregg's store; Groceries; Milk; Squirrel Run (Del.: Village)
    Transcript: Lotter: Right. What else do you remember? What other stores do you remember? In Henry Clay Village?

    Hazzard: We used to deal off a store by name of Gregg. It was right at the bottom of Rising Sun Hill. The trolley car passed it. It was an old frame building. Then they moved down to Brinkley Avenue, right off 18th and Broom. But, they'd come around in the morning and get your order -- maybe 7:30 in the morning to get your order. And then before they had a truck, they had a horse and wagon to deliver. The milkman always delivered in a horse and wagon.

    Lotter: Now, did he stop in also and take the order?

    Hazzard: No. They'd just leave the milk. And in the wintertime, he'd bring it the night before because you never knew if the horses were going to get through or not. So, in bad weather we got the milk in winter the night before instead of being left on the porch.

    Lotter: Do you remember what type groceries you had delivered?

    Hazzard: All kinds, I guess.

    Lotter: Whatever you needed he had.

    Hazzard: Oh, yes.

    Lotter: Now did he have a store that you could go into and shop that way also if you preferred?

    Hazzard: Yes. Many a time we had to run across and get potatoes or something we forgot to order. Even when they moved down on Brinkley Avenue, they'd still come up and get everybody's order around the crick. There weren't that many telephones then.

    Lotter: You also mentioned the trolley. How far -- was that the end of the trolley line?

    Hazzard: No, it went all the way up to Montchanin there where Carpenters lived. Buck Road. It went all the way up there. It went up to Squirrel Run and that's where Hagley is now.

    Lotter: And the trolley went up through Squirrel Run?

    Hazzard: Yes.

    Lotter: Do you remember how many houses were in Squirrel Run?

    Hazzard: Quite a few in there.

    Lotter: It's a shame that has all been torn down.

    Hazzard: This was the Harkins girl picture. Now, they say she lived in this house but that was more than one house there, you know, in Squirrel Run. The newsletter from DuPont. That was Hallock's. Well, he had old cars store in there, I think. Hallock du Pont.

    Lotter: When did he have the cars stored there?

    Hazzard: Oh, when he was living himself, you know, up at -- She says she lived there, but I don't think she ever lived there. But her father and her -- because she lives on Delaware Avenue and Woodlawn -- out there.

    Lotter: So this house would have been lived in by more than one family.

    Hazzard: Yes.

    Lotter: It looks quite large.

    Hazzard: Yes, because they didn't have large houses then. Because we had one, two, three houses made into one. There in that picture.

    Lotter: When you lived there?

    Hazzard: Yes. See, we had these two in the front here and then they went up just to the -- that would be one, two, three rooms -- then back -- that was our kitchen window and then right back of that was like a cellar. We always called it a cellar -- dark room. And then the back we had that and those top windows in the back and these in the front they belonged to that house. In the back.

    Lotter: There was another entrance in the back.

    Hazzard: Yeah. This is our living room, dining room -- no -- dining room and kitchen. The living room was up in the back. And we washed back of this window and this window was in the kitchen. Because my mother used to sit there and comb her hair at night and mornings before we went to school. Fitzharrises would come up and get theirs combed because their mother was dead.

    Lotter: And did your mother wash their hair, too?

    Hazzard: Yes.

    Lotter: She mentioned that an aunt washed their hair for them. Did your mother have long hair? You mentioned she combed it.

    Hazzard: Kinky, kinky hair.

    Lotter: Now did she put it up in a bun?

    Hazzard: Yes, a bun.

    Lotter: You mentioned the kitchen and then the dining room and the living room.

    Hazzard: The living room was upstairs. They were big rooms.

    Lotter: And you had a separate dining room in that house?

    Hazzard: Yes. That's because we had the three houses. Otherwise, it would be like three rooms for each house. One big bedroom, one big – -

    Lotter: Well, a kitchen, and probably a dining-room-sitting room.

    Hazzard: Oh, yeah, your kitchen table was as big as the dining room. I remember when we were kids, the dining room was the living room then. Because we didn't have the back house then; we got it later.

    Lotter: So you spent most of your time then in the dining room?

    Hazzard: Well, it was made into a living room then. And then when we got the back part, we put the living room upstairs.

    Lotter: And you mentioned just one bedroom?

    Hazzard: That's what those houses had -- two bedrooms -- one on each floor.

    Lotter: One here and then one on the third floor?

    Hazzard: Yes.

    Lotter: So, with seven children, where did everyone sleep?

    Hazzard – Well, let me think. This back window the four boys slept in it – - the other side, those other two windows.

    Lotter: These two?

    Hazzard: Yeah. There was a great big room. And I know they had two double beds in it and my father and mother slept on this end.

    Lotter: And they had these two windows on that end and then what about the girls?

    Hazzard: This one over here –

    Lotter: Here or here -- underneath where the boys were?

    Hazzard: Yes. And then my grandmother slept in that one.

    Lotter: So you had four bedrooms -- that was after it was opened up?

    Hazzard: As long as I can remember, we had the four. But then, we had more than that when we got the back.

    Lotter: That was quite a large house then.

    Hazzard: Yes. Big rooms. Really big.

    Lotter: Were most families as large as yours in those days?

    Hazzard: I think so.

    Lotter: So you needed all of those rooms. Let's carefully walk this back to the table. I know you must enjoy looking at that picture.

    Hazzard: Saved it from her brother when he came and he's been here a hundred times since the picture and forgot it. Take it out. I'm always sticking things I want to keep under a cushion until the time comes and then I forget. May I see that book?

    Lotter: I'm going to leave that with you.

    Hazzard: I think my father's picture is in that.

    Lotter: Would you like to look for it now? This is "The Workers' World." That went with a display that we had at Hagley a year or so ago and I'm sure a lot of the pictures will be familiar to you.

    Hazzard: This is the old covered bridge down where we lived.

    Lotter: Do many of those look familiar to you?

    Hazzard: Yes. Most of them. Some of the men, too. St. Joseph's.

    Lotter: Well, you may like to take your time and look at that and maybe some time I can come back and you can help me identify some of the people in the picture. It would be very helpful to us to know who some of those people are.

    Hazzard: Now, there's my father.

    Lotter: Now this is the picture at the top of page 50 and you're talking about the man right in the front, the very middle, the third from the left.

    Hazzard: And this man's name is Daugherty.

    Lotter: And this is the man in the back row, the second from the left. Do you remember his first name?

    Hazzard: Eugene. I know my father was a plumber up there. Or, I guess he kept it up.

    Lotter: And actually, even after he left the powder yards?

    Hazzard: Yes. He went to the railroad and had both legs off.

    Lotter: Any of those faces look familiar?

    Hazzard: A lot of them look familiar. There's so much junk laying around. I guess that was wintertime.

    Lotter: Well, that's for you so I hope you'll enjoy looking through it. You've been able to help us with a couple of them.

    Hazzard: Maybe by the time you stop back, I'll know a lot --if my brother stops in, you know. He'd know. He's older.

    Lotter: Where does your brother live?

    Hazzard: Way up on Naamans Road.

    Lotter: Has anyone interviewed your brother?

    Hazzard: I don't know.

    Lotter: Which brother is this?

    Hazzard: James.

    Lotter: And his last name is Kindbeiter?

    Hazzard: Kindbeiter. Yes.

    Lotter: I'll check and see if anyone has talked with him. Is he the oldest?

    Hazzard: The oldest living now. He was next to the oldest.

    Lotter: Do you remember about when he was born?

    Hazzard: Let me see. He was born about 1908, I guess. Oh, no, he's more than two years older than me because I have another brother -- 1906, I guess.

  • Chores; Getting ice delivered; Getting water; Traveling merchants; Doing the laundry
    Keywords: Chores; Coal; Gardens; Ice; Ice boxes; Kerosene lamps; Laundry; Springhouses; Victory Gardens; Water
    Transcript: Lotter: Getting back to your family life, what kind of chores do you remember doing as a young girl?

    Hazzard: The only thing I had to do was dishes. Be out of the crick in time to set the table. Couldn't wait till our mother got out of the house at night if she was going some place, we'd make fudge or molasses candy and ruin everything with the molasses candy.

    Lotter: Dishes were the only thing? What about making beds and things like that?

    Hazzard: My mother seemed to always have them done.

    Lotter: She must have been very efficient. Nothing else? Did you ever help with the cooking other than candy maybe after dinner? How about shopping, cleaning? I know a lot of the girls cleaned the tops of the kerosene lamps. Did you ever have to do that?

    Hazzard: Oh, that was a job for Saturday. I used to like to do that. It was sloppy. Clean it out with newspaper first and then wash it with hot water. Every Saturday morning all those lamps had to be done. I guess during the week, too, because you'd smoke them up easy.

    Lotter: Yes, I'm sure you do, but you only remember helping on Saturday morning with that?

    Hazzard: Yes.

    Lotter: How about emptying the pan of water underneath the refrigerator? Was that your job?

    Hazzard: It seemed like we only kept the refrigerator going in the summertime and then we had it out -- no, we did have it inside the house. But, we had a springhouse --a spring on this side.

    Lotter: That would-be on the left side looking at the house?

    Hazzard: Yes.

    Lotter: So in the winter you really didn't use the icebox?

    Hazzard: I don't think so because the iceman didn't come around then. I don't remember him coming around. That big wagon would come along, you know, and we'd hop in the back of it -- up the step, you know.

    Lotter: And you hitched a ride?

    Hazzard: Yeah.

    Lotter: And did he give you slivers of ice?

    Hazzard: Always some were there. But, we loved that. It was like ice cream to us. The ice.

    Lotter: What kind of food do you remember being stored in the springhouse?

    Hazzard: Well, they'd make homemade root beer and things and stick it in there. The house was cold enough, I guess, in the winter to give the back, as I call it, their cellars, you know. But, it wasn't. Because if you got a ton of coal, they'd put -- the back porch came down, you know. Years back they used to have coal bins along the road.

    Lotter: And the coal was stored there?

    Hazzard: Yeah. The wood and the coal. Each house on the end had a shed. We had built to it, right off the porch --come out the door. A great big one. And that's where we did the wash in the summertime and all. Out there. But the middle ones didn't have any of that.

    Lotter: Just the two end ones? Now where did you get your water from? To do the wash?

    Hazzard: The spring.

    Lotter: Where was the spring located?

    Hazzard: See that window that I said was in the kitchen? Well, it's right back there like. A plot of ground about this wide and it was here.

    Lotter: So it was located -- let me take this with me.

    Hazzard: It would be about here.

    Lotter: I see. So it would be a few feet out from the side of the house, about midway from the side of the house.

    Hazzard: This thing was all the way over more to the next row of houses. And this tree should be about here. But that picture made it look like it was close. But --

    Lotter: Is this your springhouse?

    Hazzard: No. Like a run comes across the road down the hill. Down to the crick.

    Lotter: Where was your springhouse located?

    Hazzard: Just about here.

    Lotter: It was fairly close to where you got your water? To where your water pump was?

    Hazzard: Yes. Then they put water up along the road -- a hydrant, later than that and that would carry it in. Then they put baths in. First of all we had to turn the spigot on.

    Lotter: Now how many people used that water pump?

    Hazzard: About three right along there. You know for each row of houses in the front. The hydrant. Pressed down on it and the water would come out.

    Lotter: But before you got the hydrant, you mentioned the one on the side of the house. Was that just for your house?

    Hazzard: Yes. There was one on the other end. Ferraros had a big spring there.

    Lotter: Now did your family have a garden?

    Hazzard: Oh, yes. They had one up -- DuPonts uses the ground now -- it was up there. The ground was given to them for victory gardens or whatever they called them then.

    Lotter: Now this would be in front of your house?

    Hazzard: No, up back. Up by the old country club. There used to be -- it was green and white -- then they used it as a golf club afterwards. But clay shoots – - you know they shoot those clay -- I forget what you call them -- saucers -- like clay saucers. And they had these duck blinds down inside or something. They were all through up there. The gunning club it was. Then they turned it into a golf club. Then they built a new golf club. And then they built another new one. It's more of a cafeteria, the other golf club. But the first one was torn down. It would be right on the top of the hill.

    Lotter: Did you have a large garden?

    Hazzard: Seemed to be.

    Lotter: Do you remember what type things you grew?

    Hazzard: They had potatoes and all that, you know.

    Lotter: A lot of root vegetables?

    Hazzard: We always bought potatoes by the -- enough to last the winter. And flour by the barrel. And all that kind of stuff.

    Lotter: What about things from your garden? Did you try to grow enough root vegetables and things like that to go through the winter?

    Hazzard: No, we just ate them as they came along.

    Lotter: And you don't remember your mother doing any canning?

    Hazzard: Oh, like tomatoes and different things she would put up. But most of that she'd buy.

    Lotter: But she really didn't depend on the garden then to –

    Hazzard: No. She always put fruit up -- peaches, and all that kind of stuff.

    Lotter: Were there fruit trees around?

    Hazzard: No. Woodward would come around selling it by the basket.

    Lotter: I see. What other people do you remember coming through selling things?

    Hazzard: Woodward was about the only one. We'd get potatoes from him and things and apples. Honest they look the same -- those men – as they did years back.

    Lotter: That's wonderful. What about getting back to your family, we talked about chores. Were there any chores that the boys had to do?

    Hazzard: They had to cut wood or something.

    Lotter: How about bringing in water and things like that? That belonged to the boys.

    Hazzard: Yes.

    Lotter: And you mentioned washing clothes out in the shed in the summertime. Do you remember what kind of tubs you used for washing?

    Hazzard: Most of them were wooden tubs, you know. Because you'd have to put water in them sometimes to swell them up again.

    Lotter: And where did you have the tubs located, do you remember?

    Hazzard: Long benches -- they'd sit on that.

    Lotter: And how many tubs did you use?

    Hazzard: Three. The blue rinse. There was three tubs you rinsed in. And then they had a big boiler that heated on the cookstove in the house -- the water, you know, and carry it out to the shed.

    Lotter: Do you ever remember your mother boiling any of the clothes?

    Hazzard: Oh, yeah.

    Lotter: I imagine coming up from the powder yards the men were pretty dirty.

    Hazzard: Yeah. Boiled them.

    Lotter: Did she boil just the dirty -- real dirty things -- or did she boil most of the clothes?

    Hazzard: Most of the things she boiled.

    Lotter: I see. And then she used -- you mentioned the bluing and then two other tubs just with fresh rinse water in them?

    Hazzard: Yeah.

    Lotter: And how were the clothes wrung out after all of this, by hand?

    Hazzard: By hand. Then, I remember them getting a wringer. And then I remember the water power washing machine. You know, it was a wooden tub and water was run into the shed and then they had the water power washer.

    Lotter: Just swish the clothes back and forth.

    Hazzard: Yeah. Because inside of the tub was like a washboard, you know, with a rough –

    Lotter: I see. And it sort of turned the clothes against the rough side.

    Hazzard: Yeah. We had that for years, that water power.

    Lotter: And then did that have a hand wringer also, one that you turned by hand?

    Hazzard: Yeah.

    Lotter: That must have been quite a job. Now did –

    Hazzard: That was a job for my father. He had to sit there and turn all the clothes.

    Lotter: Did you girls help with the washing?

    Hazzard: Well, we'd slop in it, you know.

    Lotter: How often do you remember your mother washing? During the week?

    Hazzard: Mondays and Fridays. That was big washings those days. I guess she would wash other than that.

    Lotter: I imagine she had a lot. If -- Did she change sheets and things?

    Hazzard: Yeah.

    Lotter: Once a week, too. I imagine there were a lot of things to wash. In the wintertime when it was extremely cold, where did she hang the clothes?

    Hazzard: I don't know. They were stiff as boards when they came in outside. They'd take them in at night, and we'd all go to bed, and drape them over chairs in the kitchen. I can remember underwear and things being stiff as boards.

    Lotter: Did she ever hang anything in the shed, or did everything go outside?

    Hazzard: Everything went outside.
  • Going to church; Fourth of July Celebrations; Thoughts on Alfred I. du Pont; Swimming in the Brandywine and other leisure activities
    Keywords: Baseball; Boating; Brandywine Creek; Du Pont, Alfred I. (Alfred Irenee), 1864-1935; Du Pont, S. Hallock (Samuel Hallock), 1901-1974; Fourth of July; Ice skating; Saint Joseph on the Brandywine Roman Catholic Church (Wilmington, Del.); Sledding; Swimming
    Transcript: Lotter: Getting back to your family again, we talked about chores, what about family activities? Were there things that the whole family did together that you recall?

    Hazzard: Only if it was a church supper everybody went, you know, and things like that. And always went to the same masses on Sunday.

    Lotter: Up to St. Joseph’ s Church?

    Hazzard: Yeah.

    Lotter: What about picnics or –

    Hazzard: Oh, they had the Fourth of July picnic. That was up where Halleck du Pont lives now, you know, the grounds were there. Everybody came -- from Forty Acres -- everybody around went to the Fourth of July picnic. Had a band and everything up there. A platform they put up for dancing.

    Lotter: That sounds like quite an affair.

    Hazzard: Yeah. Regular country affair.

    Lotter: Do you remember any bands that played there?

    Hazzard: No, I wouldn't remember the names of them.

    Lotter: Do you remember Alfred du Pont's band? Do you ever remember hearing about his band?

    Hazzard: My father and them -- I never knew why, but they never liked Alfred du Pont. And they would never go on his boat ride. There was quite a few of them wouldn't. You know, they had these boat rides. Whether it was Simon Dorman -- he and Alfred I. were real close. And Simon never got along with the men and I think they stayed away from them because Simon had a lot to do with it. Simon and Mike Maloney. I just never knew, but I can remember there was something going on, you know. And my father would never go on those boat rides. And people would say, Oh, they had a wonderful time, and I could never understand why they wouldn't go.

    Lotter: Now, your father was invited to go on the boat rides while he was working with the company or was this after?

    Hazzard: That was afterwards.

    Lotter: Do you remember about when he had these boat rides and about how old you were?

    Hazzard: Around 10, I guess.

    Lotter: So this would be around 1920 then that you recall the boat rides.

    Hazzard: Yeah. And, too, Alfred I. was getting a divorce at that time. Oh, that was scandalous.

    Lotter: I imagine it was in those days.

    Hazzard: You know, a divorce. I know Ella Fitzharris' father never went on them, either. And it was just a certain group wouldn't have anything to do.

    Lotter: But anyone who had worked for the company was invited to go on these boat rides?

    Hazzard: Yeah.

    Lotter: I've heard about them but I didn't realize there were a lot of people that didn't care to go.

    Hazzard: Yeah. I don't know. Maybe my brother would know something about it, you know, being older. Of course, he'd add to it.

    Lotter: Well, we'll have to talk to him about it. Do you remember -- you talked about going swimming in the Brandywine. What other things did you do for fun?

    Hazzard: Oh, Lord that was all summer. There was always a boat around, you know -- a row boat. We'd go from one dam by Breck’ s Mill all the way down to the dam by the Experimental. Either that or above that dam at Breck's Mill on the way up to the swinging bridge. The whole crick we would take over.

    Lotter: Before we go any further, I want to check this tape. I think we're O.K. What else do you remember doing in the summertime --besides swimming. Were there things that the girls did together or did boys and girls do things as a group?

    Hazzard: It was group. All kinds of games and end up at the tower for ball games.

    Lotter: Baseball?

    Hazzard: Yeah. Then by that time DuPonts had different teams coming out from the building here -- in town -- sales record and all the different had ball games -- you know, the girls.

    Lotter: And this was up at the tower, too?

    Hazzard: No, they were mostly up at the old gun club when they first made it into a golf course.

    Lotter: And this was owned by the company?

    Hazzard: Yeah.

    Lotter: What other activities can you recall? How about wintertime?

    Hazzard: Well, there was always ice-skating down along the crick. And sledding.

    Lotter: Do you remember ice-skating? Did she teach all of you to ice-skate?

    Hazzard: We used to have those ice skates that would clamp on to your shoes. And I remember mine freezing on them. You know, the water coming up off the –

    Lotter: I imagine the ice lasted a lot longer then.

    Hazzard: Yeah.

    Lotter: There was probably a lot more to do. Well, before we go any further, I'm going to stop this.

  • Family's daily routine; Going to school; Baking and storing bread
    Keywords: Alexis I. du Pont School (Wilmington, Del.); Breakfast; Daily routines; Homework; Lunch; Saint Joseph on the Brandywine Roman Catholic Church (Wilmington, Del.); Yellow School (Wilmington, Del.)
    Transcript: Lotter: Now, maybe we could talk a little bit about your family's daily routine. Do you remember who got up first in the morning?

    Hazzard: Well, of course, when my mother lived, she got up first and got the boys out. Everybody seemed to get up at one time because we always had such big breakfasts. You know, the men went out to work, they had to have fried potatoes and steak or pork chop or something like that.

    Lotter: Something to keep them going all morning.

    Hazzard: So after my mother died, my sister and I used to take turns getting up. And I'd cook everything I was supposed to. My sister wouldn't. She said, "If you want it, cook it yourself." She was more modern.

    Lotter: When did your mother die?

    Hazzard: I was 13. She took pneumonia and died.

    Lotter: Well, that's a shame. So you and your sister kind of had to take over a lot of the household duties?

    Hazzard: Well, my mother's sister came with us. She took over, but she made us do things -- more than my mother did.

    Lotter: So your father got up about the same time as your mother?

    Hazzard: Yeah.

    Lotter: And when did he leave for work in the morning? Did he have to leave before the boys? Or did they all leave at the same time?

    Hazzard: No, it seemed like he never went until afternoon.

    Lotter: And then worked in the evening hours?

    Hazzard: Yeah.

    Lotter: Was he home at dinnertime?

    Hazzard: Yeah. But he was working then -- no -- when he was working on the railroad, he wasn't, but when he was up at the Experimental it seemed like he was home at dinnertime.

    Lotter: Now, did your mother have to pack lunches for everyone? For seven children and your father?

    Hazzard: Yeah.

    Lotter: That's a lot. Now, where did you go to school?

    Hazzard: St. Joseph's. And Alexis I. there.

    Lotter: You and all your brothers and sisters went to those two schools?

    Hazzard: Yeah.

    Lotter: What time did school start in the morning?

    Hazzard: I don't think it started until around quarter to nine or nine o'clock. Because we didn't get out until quarter after three, I think. Walked it all the time.

    Lotter: How did you go?

    Hazzard: Like across the crick on the bridge, up the other side, and up through the woods and out on to Barley Mill Road by the cemetery.

    Lotter: So, you had a shortcut through the woods to get to Barley Mill?

    Hazzard: Yeah. And the kids that lived in Squirrel Run, they come along the railroad and cut across.

    Lotter: Oh, I see, and you all met up.

    Hazzard: Yeah. I laugh about it now. Most likely they were Catholics, too. We'd say, "Catholics, Catholics, ring the bell; Protestants, Protestants go to hell." Now you wouldn't hear that among kids.

    Lotter: No, I don't think so.

    Hazzard: That was awful.

    Lotter: The Protestants went to which school?

    Hazzard: Alexis I. But most likely they were Catholics because they were Italians.

    Lotter: Now do you remember the yellow school house at all?

    Hazzard: Yeah, it was on Mt. Vernon Avenue. My father went there when he came over.

    Lotter: It was quite close to St. Joseph's just across the road, if I'm not mistaken.

    Hazzard: Well, there was one there, too, that was yellow.

    Lotter: You must be speaking of another one, then, that your father went to.

    Hazzard: Yeah. Was it close to the cemetery, that one?

    Lotter: Yes.

    Hazzard: That was two houses like there later on.

    Lotter: That could have been, but that's not the one your father went to.

    Hazzard: No. There was one of Mt. Vernon Avenue right off Rising Sun Lane.

    Lotter: I see.

    Hazzard: There used to be a school there.

    Lotter: Soon as Alexis I. opened, the other two schools closed, I assume.

    Hazzard: Yeah.

    Lotter: What do you remember about school? Anything in particular about St. Joseph's that you remember?

    Hazzard: No.

    Lotter: Well, when you got up in the morning, what was the first thing you did? Did you get dressed upstairs? I'm sure it was cold in winter.

    Hazzard: No, we run downstairs where the big stove was going.

    Lotter: And where were your clothes kept? Were they kept upstairs?

    Hazzard: Well, I guess our mother took them down and had them warmed up for us to put on.

    Lotter: And did you have any chores at all to perform before breakfast?

    Hazzard: No, I think she was glad for us to get out. (Laughter)

    Lotter: When you ate breakfast, did you have a certain place to sit at the table? Each person had a –

    Hazzard: Oh, yeah.

    Lotter: And was it the same place for each meal?

    Hazzard: Yes. Oh, that was terrible if somebody sat in your place.

    Lotter: I see.

    Hazzard: That's why we used to hate company coming on Sunday -- we always had to wait, you know, until they were all finished, and then we would sit down. The kids.

    Lotter: I see. So the adults would all eat first. So, you say you took your lunch to school. Did you have a lot of school books to carry?

    Hazzard: It seemed like we always had a school bag.

    Lotter: And did you have a lot of homework?

    Hazzard: Yes, we did. But not like today. The kids have more, I think, than we did.

    Lotter: And where did you do your homework?

    Hazzard: Around the kitchen table at night.

    Lotter: And all the homework had to be done at night. Did anyone check to make sure your homework was done?

    Hazzard: Oh, yeah.

    Lotter: Who did this -- your mother or your father?

    Hazzard: My father most of the time. They'd hear our spelling and we had to know it, too.

    Lotter: What other type homework do you remember? Did you have arithmetic?

    Hazzard: Yeah. Spelling and not much like English only our spelling words and catechism words. Then when we got older, geography and history.

    Lotter: You said your mother packed a lunch to take to school. What type food did she fix for you?

    Hazzard: Most of it then was jelly because we didn't like lunch meat.

    Lotter: A jelly sandwich?

    Hazzard: Yeah. And a cake and a piece of fruit. And a bottle of milk. And in the wintertime a lot of kids would take tea. You might as well say it was milk, it was so white. And they'd heat it around the great big pot-bellied stove. Used to take whiskey bottles.

    Lotter: Now the bottles of milk that you carried, were these small bottles that were delivered by the milkman?

    Hazzard: No. They didn't have such a thing then.

    Lotter: So this was just milk poured into a small container?

    Hazzard: Yeah.

    Lotter: What kind of bottle did you use?

    Hazzard: I guess they were half-pint whiskey bottles. Because a lot of kids had the pint bottles with only half full, you know.

    Lotter: And what kind of bread did you use in your sandwiches?

    Hazzard: My mother always baked bread -- my mother and grandmother.

    Lotter: Mostly white bread?

    Hazzard: Yeah, all white bread.

    Lotter: How many times a week do you remember her baking bread?

    Hazzard: Three.

    Lotter: And how many loaves would she make at one time?

    Hazzard: I don't know, but there would be a lot of it, you know. Then wrap it all up in a tablecloth. A lot of times, I'd think where did she put all this stuff?

    Lotter: You don't remember where she stored the bread?

    Hazzard: She had cans, you know, put it in there.

    Lotter: Where did she get these cans from?

    Hazzard: Well, the stores -- she bought lard, you know, they'd have --that would be five pounds -- I guess 25-lb. cans or bigger.

    Lotter: These were tin cans?

    Hazzard: Yeah. And then when they were all sold out, they would give them to you. Or maybe a quarter or less, but they usually gave them to you.

    Lotter: These were big round cans?

    Hazzard: Yeah.

    Lotter: Did they have covers on them?

    Hazzard: Yeah.

    Lotter: That would be a good place to store a lot of things.

    Hazzard: So they were usually given to them.

    Lotter: And these were kept where -- in the kitchen?

    Hazzard: Yeah.
  • Making sauerkraut in the shed; Fathers skill as a shoemaker; Dinner and meals; Window coverings; Daily routine; Sunday routines
    Keywords: Curtains; Dinner; Evening routines; Lace; Meals; Pajamas; Saint Joseph on the Brandywine Roman Catholic Church (Wilmington, Del.); Sauerkraut; Shoemaking; Sundays
    Transcript: Lotter: You mentioned a little while back about the shed and doing the washing in the shed. Was anything else done in that shed or anything else kept in that shed?

    Hazzard: Only like toys or something.

    Lotter: How about tools? Where did your father keep his tools?

    Hazzard: In there, I guess. He used to make sauerkraut. Across the road we had a shed. Down -- had one floor even and –

    Lotter: This was another shed?

    Hazzard: Yeah. Down -- he would make sauerkraut. His father when he come over from Alsace-Lorraine, took a sauerkraut cutter with him. And, oh, God, when it started to ferment, the smell of it --and then when it was all ready, I think everybody in the crick every week got sauerkraut.

    Lotter: So he shared with all the neighbors?

    Hazzard: Yeah.

    Lotter: Did he have this in big crocks?

    Hazzard: Great big wooden barrels. Put it on the thing and slice the cabbage this way.

    Lotter: This was a slicer that fit over?

    Hazzard: Over the tub.

    Lotter: Oh, I see, right over the barrel.

    Hazzard: And they'd have salt and everything there to put on it. Then you packed it down tight with this big wooden plunger. Put a piece of cheesecloth on it and then put a round like a lie or something -- wood -- and put a great big rock on it to hold it down tight to make it ferment. Quicker.

    Lotter: How many barrels of this would they make at a time.

    Hazzard: He'd make a couple. Of course, you could buy a head of cabbage then for two cents. The man would come with a big wagonload and dump it off.

    Lotter: And where would you get your cabbage -- from Woodwards or somewhere else?

    Hazzard: I don't know where he'd get it. Somebody would bring it every year to the house. Dump it in there.

    Lotter: And he'd make this once a year or would he make it more often?

    Hazzard: Once a year. Then he used to repair all our shoes. And the neighborhood kids', too.

    Lotter: So where did he do this?

    Hazzard: Well, in the summertime he did it across the road in that shed. And in the wintertime he'd take it in. He had the awl and hammer and –

    Lotter: So, he was able to replace the soles and heels, etc.

    Hazzard: The neighbors’ kids -- I mean everybody got along good.

    Lotter: That's nice. Now, getting back to your family routine a little bit. What about dinner -- what type foods to you remember eating for dinner?

    Hazzard: Well, we always had potatoes and some meat. And vegetables. Just about like we eat now.

    Lotter: And this was your main meal of the day?

    Hazzard: Yeah. My mother didn't make cakes, but she made pies all the time. See. You couldn't cook cakes so well -- you know with keeping the temperature right. My father would make them if my mother went to town or something. We'd get him to make one.

    Lotter: Did your mother and your father -- did you use wood or coal in your stove?

    Hazzard: Coal. In the winter.

    Lotter: And that was the only heat that you had in your house?

    Hazzard: Yeah. And then the parlor stoves, you know, the round ones.

    Lotter: How many of these did you have in the house?

    Hazzard: Two. The walls were thick, you know. Our windowsills were like that. They weren't as cold –

    Lotter: No, that stone must have been at least a good foot thick.

    Hazzard: Yeah. They weren't like these.

    Lotter: Now, did you have shutters on your house? Do you remember closing shutters at night? To keep the cold out?

    Hazzard: I don't think we had any on ours. No, we never had shutters. Some houses had them.

    Lotter: What did you have over the windows? Did you have shades?

    Hazzard: Shades inside and curtains up.

    Lotter: What kind of curtains did you have?

    Hazzard: Some old lace ones. Lace curtains.

    Lotter: But nothing more decorative and nothing particularly to keep the cold out.

    Hazzard: No. I do remember -- the mantelpiece -- oh, you could burn back in the fireplaces but the mantelpieces draped with silk, you know, with tassels hanging on --blue or green -- always had the mantelpiece decorated. Years back.

    Lotter: I'll bet that was pretty. But the fireplaces were not boarded up then. You could use them if you had to.

    Hazzard: Yeah. But, my father never had theirs cemented up because the cookstove went into the same chimney and with kids around, it was dangerous. And then in the other rooms was the parlor stove and it was – if somebody -- one of the kids got sick or something we took a bed downstairs and put it in that room.

    Lotter: In the parlor?

    Hazzard: Yeah.

    Lotter: Oh, that was nice. Kept it nice and warm then. I imagine by the time you got up to the third floor, it was pretty chilly in the winter .At least the girls were lucky; they were on the second floor. Getting back to your daily routine, you did your homework then after dinner and then what time did you go to bed?

    Hazzard: About seven o'clock. There wasn't anything to do. At night -- after dinnertime.

    Lotter: But you did have some light in the kitchen -- kerosene.

    Hazzard: Oh, yeah, kerosene lamps.

    Lotter: Was it hard to work by when you did your homework?

    Hazzard: No, I don’ t think so. They'd say it would ruin your eyes. It didn't ruin any of our family.

    Lotter: Where were the lights?

    Hazzard: Right sitting in the middle of the table.

    Lotter: Did you have any hanging lights that you remember?

    Hazzard: Yeah, these were all sitting.

    Lotter: And then did you have special ones that you took upstairs to the bedrooms?

    Hazzard: They stayed up there. You lit them when you went up.

    Lotter: How did you see to get up there? Did you have one that you could carry with you?

    Hazzard: Yeah a small one.

    Lotter: So you went to bed at seven o'clock. What time did you get up, then, in the morning?

    Hazzard: Well, I guess it was 6:30.

    Lotter: You had a long night's sleep, didn't you?

    Hazzard: When we were younger we went to bed. Then every Monday night it used to be the Bonners across the crick where Ella Fitzharris lived, you know, they would come across every Monday night. You know, we had certain nights that they visited. Of course, they were related, and they came every Monday night.

    Lotter: So, then did you get to stay up a little later on Monday night?

    Hazzard: Yeah.

    Lotter: So, it wasn't just on the weekends that you were visiting people that lived close by back and forth during the week.

    Hazzard: Yeah.

    Lotter: And when you went to bed, what did you wear to sleep in? Say, in the wintertime?

    Hazzard: Well, I remember my mother would put a brick in the oven and wrap it up, you know, and put it in bed to keep it warm. It got put into everybody's bed.

    Lotter: Each one had a warm brick?

    Hazzard: Yeah.

    Lotter: And what about what you slept in? Did you have heavy pajamas?

    Hazzard: Well, I guess we kept our long underwear on and a nightgown on over top of it. Until they started to wear pajamas. I don't think they made pajamas then when we were little. Flannel nightgowns.

    Lotter: And the boys had nightshirts?

    Hazzard: Yeah.

    Lotter: And then what about last-minute things? Did you wash or anything before you went upstairs? Brush your teeth?

    Hazzard: We brushed our teeth. But usually the face got washed at suppertime and it didn't get done until morning again. Unless it was summertime.

    Lotter: Do you remember any bedtime stories or anything like that? Anything special that your mother or father did before you went to bed?

    Hazzard: No. I guess the books were all about read then by nighttime.

    Lotter: By bedtime? So any reading would have been done earlier in the evening?

    Hazzard: Yeah.

    Lotter: How about on weekends? Did your routine vary very much on weekends as far as when you got up and when you went to bed?

    Hazzard: No, it didn't seem to.

    Lotter: And what time was mass on Sunday morning?

    Hazzard: We always went about eight o'clock on Sunday morning. There was an earlier one, I think, but it was always eight that we went to.

    Lotter: Well, what was your typical Sunday like, then, after you went to mass?

    Hazzard: Well, we all ate when we got home. And then by that time mother would have the dinner on cooking.

    Lotter: So, you had a late breakfast on Sunday?

    Hazzard: Yeah. And dinner would be about what time?

    Lotter: About four o'clock on Sunday.

    Lotter: So you had two meals on Sunday?

    Hazzard: Yes. Although she made a big pot of soup on Saturday. And they'd have it for lunch, you know, but we never wanted any. You know kids with soup. Of course, maybe they ate breakfast earlier and we ate when we come home.

    Lotter: And do you remember doing anything special on Sunday afternoon?

    Hazzard: Just going for walks and things.

    Lotter: Did your father have a wagon?

    Hazzard: No.

    Lotter: Did your parents go for walks with you? Was this a family thing? Friends?

    Hazzard: That was -- my father always took us to the crick swimming, but not my mother because she was afraid something would happen to us. And she hated it. My father used to take us down until he knew we were able to go ourselves.
  • Swimming in the Brandywine; Games and leisure; Father's losing his legs and life afterward; Tobacco use; Shopping and using the Sear's Roebuck catalog
    Keywords: Accidents' Amputation; Baseball; Brandywine Creek; Hagley Community House (Breck's Mill); Hide and go seek; Saint Joseph on the Brandywine Roman Catholic Church (Wilmington, Del.); Sears Roebuck Catalog; Shopping; Swimming; Tobacco
    Transcript: Lotter: So he made sure that each one of you knew how to swim.

    Hazzard: Yeah. That's what we did with our kids -- took them up every Sunday for years and then until they were old enough to go by themselves.

    Lotter: Now where did you swim? Was it down beyond Breck's Mill?

    Hazzard: Yeah. But when we started to take the kids up, they moved up back of the woolen mill. Breck's Mill was over here and the woolen mill was here. I don't know if they're still allowed down there or not. Swimming.

    Lotter: I don't know. Some still do swim there.

    Hazzard: Oh, they had no right to stop it.

    Lotter: Do you remember any rope swings or anything like that? When you were there?

    Hazzard: Yeah, oh yeah. But I think that John Quinn du Pont stopped a lot of that stuff. Of course, that was from all out of town -- rougher gangs started to come, I think. I didn't live up there then when that gang was going there.

    Lotter: That makes a big difference. How about activities that your family did, maybe on a weekly basis. You mentioned going to church. Were there any clubs or anything?

    Hazzard: Everybody went over -- certain days of the week we stopped from school at Hagley there. At Breck's Mill. And like Mondays we had gym. I think Tuesdays and Fridays we had sewing. And -- no, not Fridays we had sewing because they had dances -- you know, teaching the kids to dance -- little kids and all. And then at night the older boys and girls would come for basketball games and things. There was always something going on. It was a good place then. I think you paid ten cents a week or month for your dues, you know.

    Lotter: Sounds like there were a lot of activities.

    Hazzard: Yeah, there were.

    Lotter: Now, the day that you didn't go to Breck's Mill, what would you do? Would you go straight home from school?

    Hazzard: Straight home, yeah.

    Lotter: And did you have to change your clothes?

    Hazzard: Oh, yep. That was a must.

    Lotter: That was the first thing you did -- and put on older clothes -- and then did you play mainly with friends?

    Hazzard: With kids usually.

    Lotter: Do you remember any games like hopscotch and hide-and-seek?

    Hazzard: Yes.

    Lotter: Any other games?

    Hazzard: Baseball.

    Lotter: Do you remember any games that we don't play today?

    Hazzard: No.

    Lotter: How about your father? Did he have any weekly activities or meetings?

    Hazzard: Not that I know of.

    Lotter: For instance, the Odd Fellows or Masons or anything like that?

    Hazzard: He did belong to the Eagles.

    Lotter: And what was that group?

    Hazzard: That was in town or somewhere. I think it was more for benefits out of it like at death you got so much, or if you were sick, you got so much to your doctor bill. You know, you had the Eagle doctor and things. Mostly all of them did that.

    Lotter: So this was not a social thing?

    Hazzard: No.

    Lotter: Was he interested in hunting or fishing or anything like that?

    Hazzard: Not after he had his legs off, he didn't do that.

    Lotter: What did he do after he lost his legs?

    Hazzard: Well, he could still go swimming and he could still dance with the artificial legs. And he'd walk all the way to church on Sunday where nobody would do it now. You know, from up to St. Joseph's. And he took the longest way. He had to walk either up Rising Sun Lane Hill all the way up the pike or up Brecks Lane. And I often think he must have had more religion than we would have, if we had sore legs. Because the artificial legs would rub him. And he'd walk that distance.

    Lotter: Was he still kept on at the railroad?

    Hazzard: They gave him -- after he had it, they gave him a job but it was a lot of climbing. You'd have to climb up to flag trains down, you know, and in bad weather, it was slippery with artificial legs. So, he opened a little store up the crick, himself. Ice cream and candy. Down from Hagees. On the opposite side of the crick.

    Lotter: Where it's kind of washed away now?

    Hazzard: Yeah, it's torn down.

    Lotter: I imagine all the neighborhood children liked it there. That's about all he sold -- that type thing?

    Hazzard: Yeah. Bread, Tastycakes, ice cream, candy, tobacco. That's about it.

    Lotter: Did your father smoke?

    Hazzard: Yeah, a pipe.

    Lotter: Do you remember what kind of tobacco he used?

    Hazzard: Omega, I guess. That name sticks out.

    Lotter: And when he repaired the shoes for the neighborhood, did he charge for this?

    Hazzard: No. He'd just pick up leather places, you know –

    Lotter: Do you know where he got the leather from?

    Hazzard: Years ago you could order it through the catalogs. Or if somebody worked down at the morocco shop, and bring a piece home or something to him. A belt.

    Lotter: And where was the moroccan shop?

    Hazzard: Around Fourth Street, I guess, there was some.

    Lotter: This was a leather company?

    Hazzard: Yeah. And the Ford moroccan shop was over there at18th -- not 18th -- on Ford Avenue not far off Pennsylvania in that way. It's all built up now. That would be Greenhill all the way over -- back in there.

    Lotter: Now, you mentioned catalogues. What -- you could order leather through the catalogues?

    Hazzard: Yeah.

    Lotter: Do you remember which catalogue this would be?

    Hazzard: Most likely Sears, Roebuck.

    Lotter: Did most people have a Sears catalogue?

    Hazzard: Yeah. They'd get them sent to them. But my mother would never buy clothing or anything from Sears.

    Lotter: Where did your clothing come from?

    Hazzard: There used to be the children's store down on King Street -- not Kauffman's. There were a lot of stores, you know.

    Lotter: So most of your clothes came from Wilmington?

    Hazzard: Yeah.

    Lotter: And when would they go in to Wilmington?

    Hazzard: Oh, every week.

    Lotter: Every Saturday?

    Hazzard: Yeah. There was two – - the Rising Sun trolley run and the Delaware Avenue. You could easy get in.

    Lotter: What other shopping did they do in Wilmington?

    Hazzard: All their meat was bought every week. My father would go do the meat shopping on Saturday morning. He'd have two big market baskets full. And we had chickens so we didn't need any eggs. He didn't have to carry them.

    Lotter: Was there any other food bought in Wilmington?

    Hazzard: No -- unless it was peanut butter. They used to dish it out on a lard plate -- we used to call it. Or ice cream, you know one of those -- oh, they had – sold coffee –

    Lotter: You mean like a _________?

    Hazzard: Yeah. There used to be in the window a little fat pig laying on these peanuts, you know. This iron pig. Around Sixth and King.

    Lotter: You don't remember the name of the store?

    Hazzard: I do, but just can't think of it.

    Lotter: But as far as the rest of the food, you were able to get everything else right in the village there?

    Hazzard: Yeah.

    Lotter: How about furniture? Do you remember them buying any furniture?

    Hazzard: I remember Miller's. The only furniture that I remember coming into the house. But, there were McMahons and --I mean they were in business years back, Miller Brothers. Because when my father had the store when we were kids, he used to give us so much money to save to buy my mother a Christmas present. And we wanted to get her a big cedar chest. And we went in to Miller's. He took us in one night and we bought this big cedar chest. I have it upstairs. And when Christmas came, we had it at Ferraro's house. We took it in and put it in the living room, and when she went in and saw it, she started to cry. And my little sister started to cry and scream and carry on. And we didn't know what was wrong with her. And she thought it was the box they put them in when they died. See, she remembered seeing them up at St. Joseph's cemetery.

    Lotter: And what did your mother use the cedar chest for then?

    Hazzard: Oh, those days, you had to have -- if somebody got sick, have blankets put away for special things. Sheets, too. Special. Your gowns and things. Everything had to be put in the cedar chest. I've used an old blanket that was hers -- she bought when she got this cedar chest. It was white and it had -- a double blanket --all wool. With pink border. So, she said to me, "Go up and get the blanket. I want to show it to someone." that came in, you know. The man used to go around to the door selling all that kind of stuff and you paid him so much a week. And she had just scrubbed the kitchen floor. And I come down with the blanket this way -- plop right on the kitchen floor. God, she was ready to kill me. And every time I see that blanket, I can remember. The new white blanket. But, it was put away for emergencies, you know. To have everything just so if you were sick.

    Lotter: Now, this man that you said came around -- is that the type thing he sold?

    Hazzard: Yeah. Blankets and sheets and spreads and a lot of things – jackets. For men to wear -- outside jackets.

    Lotter: So, a lot of that you could buy locally then. You didn't have to go into Wilmington?

    Hazzard: Yeah. No.

    Lotter: And you said she paid so much a week. You could pay this off on time?

    Hazzard: Yeah.
  • Kitchen floor; Celebrating Christmas
    Keywords: Christmas; Floor coverings
    Transcript: Lotter: Well, what kind of kitchen floor did your mother have that you slipped on?

    Hazzard: It was some kind of linoleum. And then in the wintertime they put sort of a rug over top of it. You know, to make it warmer.

    Lotter: What kind of floor did you have underneath?

    Hazzard: Wood. It was a wood floor.

    Lotter: And did the linoleum fit the whole kitchen?

    Hazzard: Yeah.

    Lotter: It was cut to size? You were talking about the cedar chest at Christmas. What else do you remember about Christmas? What was Christmas like in your home?

    Hazzard: Well, it was always a big day. I can remember when the Victrolas first came out. They got -- my oldest brother one. It was a Columbia and you could press buttons and the records would pop out at the bottom. And, I can remember that. Oh, they thought that was just -- We always kept everything at Ferraro's, you know, and then bring it over Christmas Eve. And nobody got in to the living room. Everybody went in at one time.

    Lotter: Now did you get up real early on Christmas morning?

    Hazzard: Yeah. We went to 5:30 mass. You know, there were no midnight mass. And then we ate when we come home and then went in.

    Lotter: So, you had to wait quite a while.

    Hazzard: Until everybody had eaten -- until they got in. And then the Ferraros would come over and be there when everybody went in to see how surprised they were.

    Lotter: And had they already celebrated their Christmas when they came over?

    Hazzard: There were no children in that house. They never married. There were two girls and two boys. Mattie was a dressmaker. Her and her sister for everybody up there.

    Lotter: Oh, I see, so if you needed something special – -

    Hazzard: Yeah. Oh, they were good dressmakers.

    Lotter: But your ordinary clothes came from Wilmington.

    Hazzard: My mother made all of ours -- the girls' clothes. And then Ferraros made special dresses.

    Lotter: Like graduation, maybe?

    Hazzard: Yeah. I know when my mother died, they made white dress that she was laid out in. They were all good neighbors.

    Lotter: So, what about the boys' clothes? Did your mother make any of the boys' clothes? Those were all bought in Wilmington?

    Hazzard: Yeah.

    Lotter: And underwear and things like that came from Wilmington?

    Hazzard: Yeah.

    Lotter: And shoes from Wilmington, also?

    Hazzard: Yeah.

    Lotter: Do you remember passing shoes down? With that many children in the family.

    Hazzard: No, I think we wore them out.

    Lotter: So you had old shoes to wear after school?

    Hazzard: Yeah. I remember the last pair of high shoes, you know. Well, I had a pair of brown oxfords this summer and when school started I said, I don't need shoes. I knew they were going to buy me the high-tops. The shoes were too small for me and I never complained all winter long. My feet were killing me by the time I came home from school. Afraid they'd make me get the high top shoes. My sisters had the high-tops. They wouldn't dare buy me another pair of shoes when the others were so good. I really took care of those shoes. I wasn't going to wear high-tops any more.

    Lotter: How old were you?

    Hazzard: Oh, about the sixth grade -- we still wore the high-tops. Usually they buttoned or laced. But a lot of times there would be a cloth top and patent leather bottom.

    Lotter: And what kind of socks or stockings did you wear with them?

    Hazzard: Well, always long and had the garters hook on to your underwear to hold them up.

    Lotter: And were they dark in color?

    Hazzard: Oh, my. My mother made us wear white ones.

    Lotter: So you had to be careful to keep those clean.

    Hazzard: Yeah, but they oiled the floors, you know, to keep the dust down in school and our week to clean or something we got right down on our knees and had big oil spots. She'd have to soak and soak them and boil them.

    Lotter: Different children, then, had to help clean up in school?

    Hazzard: Yeah.

    Lotter: You had to scrub the floor or what?

    Hazzard: No. More making a mess. Dust -- you know, with a dust brush.

    Lotter: Well, getting back to Christmas, did you have a tree?

    Hazzard: Oh, yeah. But we had something like an umbrella hung in the middle -- on something like that.

    Lotter: On a light fixture or something?

    Hazzard: Yeah. Or a hook.

    Lotter: This was in the middle of the room?

    Hazzard: Yeah. It was wood and it was all done up in tinsel -- just like an umbrella.

    Lotter: For decoration?

    Hazzard: And it would be about this round with all the balls and everything hung on it. You know, they put it up.

    Lotter: That would be about four or five feet around?

    Hazzard: Yeah.

    Lotter: And what kind of balls?

    Hazzard: Just like we have now.

    Lotter: Just like you'd hang on a tree now?

    Hazzard: Yeah.

    Lotter: They would be hanging around this umbrella?

    Hazzard: Yeah.

    Lotter: No handle, I hope.

    Hazzard: No, no handle.

    Lotter: But then you would have a tree?

    Hazzard: We didn't always have a tree. We’ d have that then we would have a tree other years.

    Lotter: And what about greens and things like that?

    Hazzard: Yeah, we had like on the front door.

    Lotter: A wreath or just a bunch of greens?

    Hazzard: Bunch of greens sometimes with maybe a few Christmas balls or ribbons to decorate it.

    Lotter: And then did your mother decorate the house with greens?

    Hazzard: Yeah.

    Lotter: Were these things that you could find in the woods close by?

    Hazzard: Yeah.

    Lotter: Anything else that you remember about Christmas or Christmas dinner?

    Lotter: We're talking about Christmas dinner.