Interview with Katherine Kindbeiter Hazzard, 1984 May 30 [audio](part 1)
- Hazzard's memories of her grandmother Farren; Using flour bags to make clothing; Doing the laundry; Swimming in the BrandywineKeywords: Boats; Borax; Brandywine Creek; Canoes; Chicken Alley; Clotheslines; DuPont Experimental Station; Flour bags; Grandmothers; Grandparents; Henry Clay (Del.: Village); Laundry; Midwives; Petticoats; Sewing; Squirrel Run (Del.: Village); SwimmingTranscript: Hazzard: That Jack Rowe wrote on the Brandywine.
Lotter: No, I haven't. This is the new one that just came out?
Hazzard: Yeah. His mother was related to me -- was my uncle, her father. Her father and my mother were brother and sister. And she married Rowe. But he was on my father's side of the family. So, we're really double related. I haven't read it, but my daughter has the book. It's the second book he wrote. He lives out in California. He was in the service and had his fingers blown from a hand grenade that landed among his men. He got over that all right -- a lot of shrapnel in different places.
Lotter: How does your daughter like the book?
Hazzard: She said she enjoyed it.
Lotter: I was just wondering, Katherine, if there were any things that you had thought of since we talked the last time of things that come to mind that you'd like to talk about.
Hazzard: I can't think of anything.
Lotter: Nothing more about Christmas celebrations or Fourth of July?
Hazzard: No.
Lotter: Well, one thing that you mentioned when we talked before and I don't think we really discussed it much was the fact that your grandmother Farren lived with you. Can you give me an idea of what her role was?
Hazzard: I tried to think and there's no relative. Like, my grandfather Farren died when I think the youngest was three and there was -- let's see -- two boys and three girls in the family. That's five. And the youngest was three. And my grandmother always went out delivering babies and things. That's where she made enough. I remember as kids, we'd see the white apron out, we'd know Nanna was going somewhere. Funny part of it was that it was in the cedar chest that I have upstairs belonged to my mother. So, my daughters said, "Where did you ever get this big apron?" I said, "Oh, that was Nanna's." Embroidered across the bottom. So, she took it. She said, "I'll take it, then. It will be my great-grandmother's." But it never rotted. And it was fine material.
Lotter: Now she delivered babies all throughout Henry Clay?
Hazzard: All through the crick, yeah. Squirrel Run, you know, around and all. Because the doctors would never get there on time up there. Half the people had no way to telephone. They'd come to the door.
Lotter: So, she always had to be ready on short notice. Now did she get paid?
Hazzard: I imagine they give her something but I never heard her mention money. Those days, you could get along on five dollars a week. I don't know whether she paid rent or not because a lot of people got their rent free if somebody was in the powder up there. I heard that. I think that's in Jack Rowe's book.
Lotter: I know if some of the men were killed, yes.
Hazzard: Yeah. But not any of our family ever that I know of. My father didn't work there very long. He was young. Then he went to the railroad and had both legs taken off.
Lotter: I remember you telling me about that. Now your grandmother lived with you?
Hazzard: Yeah.
Lotter: Do you remember how long she was with the family?
Hazzard: Until she died, I think, since I was real little. Because we lived down farther and then we moved in with her to take over when the family all were gone. And she lived then with us.
Lotter: Now, she lived with you when you lived on Walker's Bank?
Hazzard: Yeah. My mother died before she did. Then the aunts came and stayed there because we were 13 and there were seven of us and there were two younger and the rest were older. And she came and stayed, really to take care of Nanna.
Lotter: So at that point your grandmother really was not able to help much.
Hazzard: No, because she was getting old then. We’ d say “ How old are you, Nanna?" She'd say, "Eighty-five going on 100." She didn't know how old she was. You know, they come over from Ireland when they were real young. She was always 85 going on 100.
Lotter: Well, when she was in better health, what did she help with around the house?
Hazzard: Helped with the washing, I think. That's about the only thing. And her own room and things.
Lotter: How about baking or sewing?
Hazzard: No. Well, she made all her own clothes. But, my mother always did the -- Nanna always did everything by hand. And mother used the sewing machine. So, she made all our dresses. Mother never sewed until after she was married.
Lotter: She made all the girls' clothes?
Hazzard: All the girls’ and some of the boys' blouses. I remember how they used to save the flour bags. They were unbleached muslin and they would bleach them – keep putting them out until all the names were off of it. And our petticoats were made, you know, down this way, and then flannel -- it was double here -- and then flannel at the bottom for the winter.
Lotter: Oh, I see. So the petticoats had a top –
Hazzard: Yeah. Just like the little dresses they have now with the gathered-on skirt. They used to make that out of them.
Lotter: Now, when clothes were hung outside to dry, were they hung on a line or –
Hazzard: Line.
Lotter: They weren't laid on the ground or a fence?
Hazzard: No. Froze stiff in the winter. That's what reminded me when I was getting therapy for this arm. They'd take a frozen towel and put it from here down my back, then they put ice packs on top of it. You know, I never felt it. I said, I guess I was used to frozen towels and sheets coming in off the line.
Lotter: What kind of clothesline did you use?
Hazzard: It was just regular clothesline. Some people had wire. But, we never had wire that I remember.
Lotter: This was just a cord line?
Hazzard: Yeah.
Lotter: And how did you hang the clothes?
Hazzard: Clothes pins. Oh, yeah.
Lotter: Do you remember what they looked like?
Hazzard: Just regular to me, like they are now. Not the pinchy kind.
Lotter: The rounded wooden clothes pins?
Hazzard: Yeah. Mondays and Fridays were wash days. Things in-between, but that was the main days.
Lotter: Did your grandmother help with the washing at all?
Hazzard: Yes, they had to be rinsed and rinsed. You know, up and down. Three tubs. And they rinsed and the last tub was bluing. Bottle of bluing. They'd heat a big boiler of water, then they boiled the clothes.
Lotter: So everything was boiled first?
Hazzard: Oh, yeah. Especially white things, always were boiled.
Lotter: And your grandmother helped with all of this?
Hazzard: Yeah. I guess it was Borax they used most of. Because I remember getting my hair -- We'd go in the crick in the summertime and the scalp would get brown from the muddy water and my mother used to put Borax on there and scrub the scalp and we had nice white scalps. That's the only dirt we ever got out of the crick on muddy days.
Lotter: Where did you go swimming in the creek?
Hazzard: Well, you know where Hodgson's Mill is? Well, it's downright below the house where we lived. Well, down –
Lotter: You mean down towards the Experimental Station?
Hazzard: No -- up. Experimental uses the mill now. But, we always went down there when we were little.
Lotter: Now was there a beach area there?
Hazzard: If you went right back in the mill, it was sandy. Sandy Bottom they called that. But before that we were down just a little bit farther. Swim across and back. Every kid could swim. Then, after we got around 12, we started to wander. We'd be all the way up to Chicken Alley, past Rockland and down all the way to the Experimental. The dam down there below the bridge.
Lotter: I assume at that point you were expert swimmers to do that.
Hazzard: Well, they didn't know it, I guess. You know, we'd go down to the crick to swim, we knew we had to be home at quarter to five. To set the table. We ate at five and the table had to be set. That was our job. My sister and I.
Lotter: How about boats?
Hazzard: Yeah. A lot of people had boats. But, our boys when they got bigger, they saved and got a canoe and we'd use the canoe while they were out working. And we'd drag it up over the dam and there would be a gang of us. That's the way we travelled. Chicken Alley, that would be -- the swinging bridge comes down from Ross's house. I think it's Ross that lives down in the end.
Lotter: I'm not sure who -- I know where the bridge is.
Hazzard: It's a big house.
Lotter: So, you would take the canoe all the way up to Chicken Alley. Now, did you ever use a boat as a quick way of getting to the other side of the river when you were in a hurry?
Hazzard: No. Oh, one time we were coming home from church. Saturday afternoon. This Toddie Heatherton lived along the entrance to Hagley Museum. His aunt was a schoolteacher, Annie McGarvey. And he was ornery. His brother lives across the street. Toddie is dead now. But, he give us a ride home, across the crick. We got in the crick, patent leather shoes on -- it was summer – and he put us out in the middle of the crick. Oh, he hit us with a paddle -- made us get out. He did that for smartness. He was ornery.
Lotter: And what happened when you got home?
Hazzard: Well, we were sopping. And my mother would have a fit if we were not dressed up in our best going to church.
Lotter: So, were you able to change clothes or what?
Hazzard: Well, we went in the living room door -- we could get upstairs without her seeing us because she was always working in this part. Down in the kitchen. But the shoes to dry for Sunday morning. - Grandmother Farren's stories about Ireland; Grandmother's and mother's clothes; The flu epidemic; Calling the doctor for home visits; The house and shedsKeywords: Clothes; Coal; Coal bins; Crosby and Hills; Doctors; Dresses; Ghost stories; Homes; Influenza Epidemic (1918-1919); Ireland; Jacoby's store; Medicine; Outhouses; Sauerkraut; Sears Roebuck catalogs; Sheds; Skirts; TelephonesTranscript: Lotter: Is there anything else you remember about your grandmother Farren? Did she -- were there any things that she taught the children or any stories that you remember her telling?
Hazzard: A lot about Ireland, you know. And how the ghosts used to come. We'd think she just dreamed that. If she'd see a sign in the sky, she'd call us all to come look. And she'd try to explain all this to us. Irish people always had a lot of things to tell you. Leprechauns, that's what they called those little green men, as she called them.
Lotter: Did she ever talk about any ghosts or anything like that in the area or just over in Ireland?
Hazzard: Over there.
Lotter: But she didn't make up any stories?
Hazzard: Not that I remember.
Lotter: Anything else you remember about your grandmother?
Hazzard: Only the kind of clothes she wore. When she was dressed, she had a little black cape -- real heavy black cape. And a little bonnet would sit up here and tie under her chin.
Lotter: What was the top of the bonnet like?
Hazzard: It was like silk grosgrain and then had these twills of black shiny things, you know, and then tied this way. And this black cape.
Lotter: A wool cape?
Hazzard: Oh, yeah, a real heavy one. It had a couple frogs across here. And she always wore black. I never saw a dress on her. She always wore a black skirt – three breadths, as she called it. I think that was yards. Real wide. It wasn't gathered but it was gored, but it was still wide. And the top fitted, all these gores, with a little ruffle come out over the top.
Lotter: Now what color was the top?
Hazzard: It was black, too. But her everyday dresses would be calico, I guess you'd call it. I don't know like a little tiny print. Either grey or bluish thing, with little prints in it made the same way only they were gathered down to her ankles, always. And she had high shoes -- black high shoes.
Lotter: Now, how did they fasten, the shoes?
Hazzard: Laced.
Lotter: Now, how about your mother -- how did she dress?
Hazzard: Whatever the style was then. I gave my daughter all the pictures that I had of her.
Lotter: You haven't come across any more pictures?
Hazzard: I gave them to -- you know, puffed sleeves.
Lotter: She made all her own clothes, your mother did?
Hazzard: No. She bought them. Even her house dresses, I think she bought.
Lotter: Do you remember where she bought the clothes?
Hazzard: There was a store called Jacoby's, I think. That was down around Second and Market or Third. And then Crosby and Hills. All those older stores. I know she got all her sewing things there. You know, it was around Sixth and Market. I always remember that because anybody made a sale, they'd put the money in this little cart --or little -- and it would go around a track and up to the office. Then your change came back in it. It was funny to see that.
Lotter: I don't think too many stores have those anymore.
Hazzard: I doubt if any has it.
Lotter: Anything else you remember in particular about your mother?
Hazzard: She worked hard and always helping somebody, too.
Lotter: You mentioned your grandmother helping to deliver the babies and the last time we talked you also mentioned a trunk that your mother had with special clothes that in case someone got ill, there were nightgowns and blankets and so forth. Do you remember any bad illnesses or epidemics when you were little?
Hazzard: The flu. Everybody had it but my mother and one brother. But nobody died right in the family but my father's sister died. And my older brothers had to go over to Cathedral Cemetery and dig the grave and after the funeral was over, they had to fill it in because there was no help. They were putting them in trenches over there --the bodies.
Lotter: Do you remember when this was?
Hazzard: 1917, was it, around then.
Lotter: Did you have telephones at that time?
Hazzard: We had a phone because my father had been working on the railroad. We had to have a phone.
Lotter: How about when you were younger, do you remember any other epidemics? Any other times this trunk was used?
Hazzard: Somebody -- the doctor always come to the house. You know, years ago.
Lotter: Who went to get the doctor?
Hazzard: Well, they'd call him. We had a phone and all the neighbors when they wanted a doctor would call.
Lotter: Do you remember when you got the phone?
Hazzard: Well, my father worked on the railroad when I was born so we had the phone then.
Lotter: So, you really had no problem getting hold of a doctor?
Hazzard: No.
Lotter: Where did the doctor come from?
Hazzard: Well. There was Dr. Faye I think he was up around Centerville. There was a Buckmaster and Dr. Bell and Dr. Gerald Dougherty. And Dr. Palmer. All those older doctors used to come.
Lotter: So there were quite a few, then?
Hazzard: They would come up from around here. Dougherty was here and Palmer was there.
Lotter: So it was either from the Centerville area or Wilmington?
Hazzard: Yeah. Because I know Dr. Dougherty delivered me. He was some relation to my grandmother. Her name was Dougherty before. And something happened to him the day after and Dr. Bell came. He had his office down on 2nd Street. I just heard them talking.
Lotter: Do you remember any other times this trunk was used? I mean it wasn't used for just an ordinary illness.
Hazzard: No. Unless we were going to have special company to stay overnight. They'd get out the best and put it on the bed.
Lotter: One thing we are also interested in, Katherine, are some of the buildings- You talked about a shed that was attached to the end of the porch.
Hazzard: In the warm weather that's where they always washed on this side. Had a window in it and closet in there.
Lotter: Does this look like the shed that you're talking about? This is the house that I believe you grew up in and this looks like the shed on the left hand side of the porch with a window in it.
Hazzard: It had a window there and a window here on this side. Oh, that's a gate going off on the porch.
Lotter: That's a fence or something there. And you say you did your washing in there. What was that shed also used for?
Hazzard: Toys, I guess, or anything we had.
Lotter: Did your father keep anything in the shed?
Hazzard: No.
Lotter: Where did he keep his tools and things like that?
Hazzard: In back of the kitchen there was a little room we always called the cellar. In the summertime we had an oil stove in here. You know, so you wouldn't have to light the big cook stove. In hot weather.
Lotter: So, it was more like a summer kitchen, then?
Hazzard: Yeah.
Lotter: And that would also be used for storage of tools and things like that?
Hazzard: Yeah.
Lotter: Now, this door I see on the side of the house, where does that go? Down to a basement?
Hazzard: That's supposed to be a springhouse there, you know on the outside. It run back this way and out a door – the spring –
Lotter: The springhouse was not separate from the rest of the house?
Hazzard: Yeah, it was. But see, it looks like it's connected there because the whitewashing –
Lotter: But that's actually the door to the springhouse?
Hazzard- Yeah.
Lotter: Now, what were the sheds across the road used for?
Hazzard: Well, the sheds across the road -- that's when I was real young -- coal bins. You know, -- oh, this is a shed here.
Lotter: That's a large shed.
Hazzard: There used to be coal bins like along, and then when they put the water in here, see we used to have to take water from here to wash with out of the spring. This was --my father used to make sauerkraut here in this one. Across and there's a door. Then you had to go down steps and into the back of it and there was another floor like.
Lotter: I see. And what was that part used for?
Hazzard: I don't know.
Lotter: That would be the back part of the shed, then?
Hazzard: Yeah, but low. See it was a wall -- this was a wall along here to the crick -- that deep -- and there was like steps going around the back of the shed and there was a room down there. Then below that, down closer about the length of this house was the toilets they had down below. You can't see them.
Lotter: So that was below where the shed was.
Hazzard: And this house in the back had one you go up a hill to. You know, it was on a bank. See, this used to be --these two windows and this and that -- no that was our cellar window -- as we called it the cellar. But the house that entered here, then we had it broke through here and add all this.
Lotter: But while it was two houses, their outhouses were up on the hill.
Hazzard: Up on the hill. And that house there, my grandfather Kindbeiter lived in it. That's right at the Experimental gate.
Lotter: I see. You mentioned that last time. I’ m glad I found that out.
Hazzard: This row was torn down long ago. I had a good postal picture of the old crick, you know, years back. Printed in Germany. And I was -- my sister spotted it. Some man had sent it to me -- lived up in Rockford – he didn't send it to me; he brought it to me. He said it was sent to him and he had it for years and years. And I could see all the coal bins and everything that the people had and the old-fashioned bridge, and here she died and she was having it painted. And I never knew who she gave it to. And it was really -- made in Germany, this card. It was colored, too. I guess it was before colored things came here.
Lotter: That would have been a nice thing to have.
Hazzard: Yeah.
Lotter: So your outhouses then were down pretty close to the creek?
Hazzard: Yeah. Down a hill.
Lotter: Down the hill from where the shed was that the sauerkraut was made in.
Hazzard: Yeah.
Lotter: And do you remember how many outhouses were down there?
Hazzard: Well, let's see -- one, two, three –
Lotter: Each family had their own outhouse?
Hazzard: Yes.
Lotter: Do you remember what kind of toilet paper you used?
Hazzard: Newspaper, I guess, or Sears-Roebuck catalogue.
Lotter: Anything else you recall about that picture?
Hazzard: That looks like fancy work there, but I -- I see what it is. That's the wall -- right over in to the Experimental there. And the hill went up here. Now it goes up this way, you know, back of these houses. It used to go up here. Looks like fancy work. It's the branches from the tree, I guess. That's the old wall that was their yard --their top yard and they had steps to come down from there.
Lotter: Now, this was a coal bin right next to the shed there? That's where you kept your coal?
Hazzard: No. We never kept our coal in there. We kept it back here. There was a place.
Lotter: In your cellar?
Hazzard: Yeah. - Getting coal delivered; Identifying people in "The Workers' World at Hagley" by Glenn Porter; Explosions at Hagley; Childhood toysKeywords: "The Workers' World at Hagley" by Glenn Porter; Bicycles; Coal; Deliveries; Explosions; Flexible Flyer sled; Hagley Yard; Toys; WoodTranscript: Lotter: And was it delivered directly in to your cellar? How did it –
Hazzard: It came through the back porches up there, you know.
Lotter: Was there a chute?
Hazzard: Yeah.
Lotter: So, the coal was delivered on a wagon?
Hazzard: Oh, yeah.
Lotter: And then how did they get it down the chute?
Hazzard: They just dumped the big bags. I think it was about 20 bags to a ton. Something like that.
Lotter: So you didn't store coal outside at all?
Hazzard: No.
Lotter: How about wood?
Hazzard: The wood we did over in the shed.
Lotter: And that was stored?
Hazzard: Yeah.
Lotter: And who cut up the wood?
Hazzard: The boys. I know I used to think it was fun to do it. I should have been a boy. I wish I had that snapshot to show you.
Lotter: Have you had a chance to look at any of the other pictures in the book?
Hazzard: This looks like Mrs. Devenney. That's the first row of houses I’ ve been going down. That looks just like Mrs. Devenney. It don't say.
Lotter – I’ m not sure they know who all these people are.
Hazzard: That looks like Mrs. Devenney.
Lotter: That's on page 43.
Hazzard: This is not the crick, though. This is up on the other side. Oh, this is the blacksmith shop -- Brecks Lane and then you went in half way up the lane and back in here was the blacksmith shop.
Lotter: I think this is up from the Hagley yards there.
Hazzard: Squirrel Run, then.
Lotter: I think it's up past Squirrel Run, up near where before you get to Free Park. Do you remember that area as a child? That house is now open. This first house here is now open as part of the Museum. They've had a school program in there for years and it's now open to the public. So you might be interested some time in coming over to see it.
Hazzard: I know the book you gave me like this -- my son came from Cleveland. He works there and he's a patent attorney for -- it was Diamond Shamrock, I think, but part of it was sold to some Japanese firm -- and he's working with them. And he spotted the book and he had to take it home. That's what happened.
Lotter: So, you haven't had a chance to look at it. That's a shame.
Hazzard: He came that weekend -- he and his son. Then they came back for Easter. His wife and the three children came back. Of course, the oldest one is in Ohio State and then the boy is a junior in high school and the other is a freshman. So, he had to take that back. That will be a cousin -- Pat Hazzard -- he's 101 years old. And he gave him a watch. It's his father's and he's 101. It's a silver watch and a big thick chain that you wore here, you know, and you wound the watch with a key. It still runs, but he wants to have it cleaned because it either gains time or loses it. But to find a good watchmaker now. You know now everybody uses the cheaper watch.
Lotter: Now where did Pat Hazzard live?
Hazzard: Well, when he came over, his father had died when he was 10 or so. And his mother's sisters kept him over in Ireland while she came over here and got work. And he came over when he was 16. Lived on 18th Street then. And he worked at the post office all those years and he's 101 and he's still walking. He is the smartest man. I mean he writes beautiful. Send you a Christmas card at Christmas -- Dear Cousin Katherine -- He's my husband's cousin, you know. But, you'd be amazed if you ever met him. Everybody talks about him. He's so polite. And he's not senile and he doesn't repeat anything. He can talk on any subject. And he's little. Not a tall man at all. And he'll be 102 in July. He's living on Harrison Street, that apartment for elderly. You get your meals and all there, but if you're sick, you have to go to the hospital. I can't even think of the name of it. It's expensive, but not as expensive as some of them. That's where he lives now. His wife had been in a nursing home for about eight years. Spent a fortune on her. I don't know how he saved all that money. Because he always had a nice home. Then they sold it and moved down on Grant Avenue. And then, of course, he sold that and went in to Ingleside.
Lotter: Yes, you're right. I couldn't think of that, either.
Hazzard: It's really nice in there.
Lotter: Yes, very nice. Well, getting back to Walker's Bank, ...what kind of sounds do you remember?
Hazzard: Sounds?
Lotter: Any sounds from the mill at all?
Hazzard: No. The mill was quiet. It was a woolen mill when we lived there. Only the whistles blowing at the Experimental at lunch time and quarter to five it blew. And the little soft coal dump carts -- like two wheels with great big fat horses would deliver the coal over the bridge. You know, into the Experimental.
Lotter: Were there any bells at Walker's Mill?
Hazzard: I don't remember any. Only bell that we could hear was St. Joseph's on the Brandywine. You really could hear that.
Lotter: How about anything from the Hagley yards -- any sounds or smells?
Hazzard: Well, I guess then I was younger. No, there were no sounds, but of course, we were a good distance down the crick but we could hear the explosions, you know.
Lotter: Do you remember any of the explosions?
Hazzard: I remember the last one, you know, real well.
Lotter: This was about when?
Hazzard: I guess I was about eight or 10 when the last one. I think that was the last one there were, too. That's when the bodies were blew across the crick and all. We knew quite a few people then that had lived up there. It was a great place. Everybody knew everybody. Everybody was willing to help everyone.
Lotter: Anything else you remember about the explosion?
Hazzard: No. I know mother was curling our hair to go to school. Combing it. Then we all had curly hair. And she grabbed us and pulled us back in the corner. The window was shaking and –
Lotter: So, you really felt it where you were, too.
Hazzard: Mrs. Fitzharris was there that morning getting hers. My mother combed their hair and saw that they were --their mother had died -- was dressed fit to go to school.
Lotter: So, was there any school that day?
Hazzard: I don't think anybody went, whether there were one or not. Used to be little pieces of smokeless powder in the crick if we'd be wading in there and we'd always be picking that up, you know. I don't know whether it would ever be dangerous or not.
Lotter: Nothing else that you recall then about the explosions --what people did or said about it afterwards?
Hazzard: No. I guess we had a certain time to go to bed, if somebody come in. Seven o'clock we had to go to bed to get up early in the morning you walked up to St. Joseph's. My mother had a routine. You went to bed at a certain time and you got up at a certain time.
Lotter: And she pretty much stuck to this routine?
Hazzard: Yeah. Well, then, you'd be tired, you know. I can see why she did it because mine all went to bed early when they were little. It's the best place for them. Some people let them run the streets; it's terrible.
Lotter: What toys do you remember playing with when you were little?
Hazzard: We always seemed to have wagons; we had bicycles. The girls didn't have a big bike, but the boys always did. We rode them. And sleds -- we always got a sled. We didn't want anything but a Flexible Flyer. Well, then they were cheap; you can't get one for $40 now. The kind we had. And one down the cellar that I bought for my youngest son and they all come and get it in the wintertime and go up to the tower. - Childhood toys; Christmas presents; Playing with marbles and jacks; Other games and funKeywords: Christmas presents; Dolls; Games; Jacks; Marbles; School supplies; ToysTranscript: Lotter: I imagine that's a good place to sled. Did you have any dolls?
Hazzard: Yeah.
Lotter: What did they look like?
Hazzard: Some of them had moveable arms and wigs like hair. I had one given to me that had little earrings on the china face, you know.
Lotter: Now this was a china face and a cloth body?
Hazzard: No, it was the other kind.
Lotter: The plastic -- or rubber. Probably it was rubber.
Hazzard: Yeah. But, we had doll coaches.
Lotter: Did you make any of the doll clothes?
Hazzard: My mother would.
Lotter: How about your grandmother, did she?
Hazzard: No. Because she used to think it was foolish of my mother to spend so much money. We'd all pick our place out in the living room. My place was one end of the sofa and my twin sister was on the other. Each one had a chair. Of course, we had to put them on the floor afterwards. We all knew where our things were going to be. Nobody got into the living room until after they ate their breakfast. And the Ferraros would come over and they would go in the living room door and were in the living room when we got in there. They wanted to see how surprised we were because most everything was sent to their house.
Lotter: Ahead of time?
Hazzard: Yeah. They lived on one corner and we lived on the other.
Lotter: Now, were both the sisters dressmakers?
Hazzard: Um-hum. Both of them sewed.
Lotter: What else do you remember getting for Christmas? Or what other toys, not necessarily for Christmas, but what other toys?
Hazzard: Oh, you'd always get a new school bag and tablets and pencils, a game.
Lotter: What kind of games do you remember playing with?
Hazzard: I don't know. So much like our kids would start, you know, spinning – -
Lotter: Do you remember anything like checkers?
Hazzard: Oh, we always had dominoes and checkers.
Lotter: How about marbles?
Hazzard: Oh, yes, we played marbles all the time.
Lotter: Did the girls play marbles as well?
Hazzard: Yeah.
Lotter: Do you remember how to play?
Hazzard: Oh, yeah, but they don't do it that way anymore.
Lotter: How did you play?
Hazzard: We'd have a circle and shoot, you know, and try to get them out of the circle and when you got it out of the circle, that was yours. But they do it different now. The kids have a game of marbles.
Lotter: Did you have special kinds of marbles?
Hazzard: No. We had clay ones -- you'd get 10 for a cent --these little clay ones. But then I think you got two glass ones for a nickel. Everybody had their bag of marbles. The girls and the boys, too.
Lotter: What kind of bags were they kept in?
Hazzard: Just a piece of cloth with a drawstring in the top.
Lotter: And did you buy them that way?
Hazzard: No, my mother would make the bags.
Lotter: And where did you buy the marbles?
Hazzard: Oh, Simon Dorman's or across -- maybe if somebody was in town, they bought them at the ten cent store.
Lotter: Well, now, your father had a store for a while. Did he sell marbles?
Hazzard: No, he didn't. I guess marbles were -- we used to play jacks. On top of the spring there where I showed you the spring. It was cement.
Lotter: On top of the springhouse?
Hazzard: Yeah. It was only about that high off the ground – the back of it –
Lotter: A couple feet.
Hazzard: Yeah. And the girl's father that run the mill – - the woolen mill -- she played with all of us all the time. A lot of the big ones would come; they were older. And we'd play marbles -- I mean jacks there.
Lotter: Now, what kind of a ball did you use?
Hazzard: Well, I didn't like the little ones that would come with jacks. I didn't like them. We had one of them. That big.
Lotter: Like two or three inches in diameter?
Hazzard: Yeah. You always had a bag of jacks and a ball.
Lotter: What were the jacks made out of?
Hazzard: They were metal.
Lotter: Similar to what we use today?
Hazzard: Yeah.
Lotter: Were they different colors?
Hazzard: No, it seemed like they were all like a penny in the beginning and then it would wear off and they'd be dark. They weren't colored.
Lotter: So, it was just a coating on the metal?
Hazzard: Yeah. Like a bronze coating or copper color, but they weren't copper.
Lotter: You played similar to the way we'd play today?
Hazzard: Yeah.
Lotter: Any other games like that that the boys and girls would play together?
Hazzard: Jump rope.
Lotter: And the boys played that, too?
Hazzard: Yeah. And play ball. We were busy all the time.
Lotter: It sounds like it. What kind of ball did you play?
Hazzard: Well, whoever would have a ball, either a hard one or a soft one.
Lotter: And rope jumping you used rhymes similar to what girls would use today?
Hazzard: Yeah. We'd take the clothesline down when we couldn't find a rope and then we were in trouble.
Lotter: Any other games that you can think of or any games that we might not play today?
Hazzard: Well, we would play a lot of Relivio, as they called it. And hide-and-seek -- we'd be all over the golf course. Then it was DuPont -- the gunning place. The gun club.
Lotter: And how did you play Relivio?
Hazzard: Just hide and then have to go look and look for miles. The greatest thing was walking out there in the summer, walking through those fields and stealing apples. Sour apples -- we'd be all the way up where Alfred I. du Pont's wall is with the glass on top. Those farmers there. It was fun doing that. Easter Monday we always took a picnic up through the woods. With our Easter baskets and put sandwiches in the baskets and always went up into the woods. That would be towards the keg mill, across from the powder mill. And had a picnic --on Easter Monday. No school. Always was warmer than it is this year. Couldn't go now.
Lotter: You certainly couldn't. Do you remember any other special things that you did or any other special days -- holidays?
Hazzard: Hunting for blackberries. We'd eat more of them and you'd be purple. Then we'd bring home.
Lotter: Where were the blackberries?
Hazzard: All the way up past -- up in the woods, you know, on the edge of the woods.
Lotter: Up behind your house?
Hazzard: Yeah. Well, farther down than up. You'd be afraid to let kids go there now. Nobody ever touched a child or anything. I wouldn't let mine go up to the Tower now by theirselves. You couldn't.
Lotter: No.
Hazzard: It's terrible. We had the whole country free, so I guess we lived in the better times.
Lotter: I think maybe you did. - Going to church at St. Joseph's; Visiting the powder yards; Part time work for children; Getting groceries and other things delivered; Favorite and least favorite foods; Celebrating birthdaysKeywords: Beacom Business College; Cake; Canning; Children; Groceries; Ham; Ice; Milk; Powder Yards; Saint Joseph on the Brandywine Roman Catholic Church (Wilmington, Del.); Sauerkraut; Tomatoes; WorkTranscript: Hazzard: But, we had our picture taken up at St. Joseph's. I think we were flower girls for a procession and it was taken in the school yard and it used to have like a barn --open barn -- tied the horses. People came in horses and carriages to church. I showed the picture to my next to the youngest daughter and she said, "You lived in the good old times, didn't you?" (Laughter). Everybody in the country come to church had a horse and wagon. They always said that when my sister and I was baptized Father Scott -- he always had a handsome carriage, they said. And stylish looking horses. He sent the horse and carriage for us. See, my father had his legs off a month before we were born, so we got a ride over in the carriage. (Laughter) Next door they're tearing that house apart. So much dirt. "Why don't you take that off that lamp." I said, "When they stop hammering, I will." Because of all that dust. I can't put the screen in there because it would have nothing but dust on it. I don't really need it, but I put them in upstairs last week -- last Saturday when it got warm. We have to have air. Then it got cold.
Lotter: Do you ever remember being in the powder mills at all?
Hazzard: No, only -- they were blown up when we were there. Just the stone part of it, you know. Then there used to be a big tank. It would always be full of water. Come down the hill and spring water would go into it. Closer to the crick. It was freezing water, you know. That was before they started to remodel, you know, for Hagley. It was down closer to the crick. I forget what they called it. We were all through -- we were in our bathing suits when we'd do it.The kitchen here is pretty good size, but they're tearing the kitchen out, taking the back porch down. And then there's a pavement on the outside of the porch and they're building the kitchen clean back to there. They're going to have all their stove and everything right in the middle of the floor. And they're going to have a deck out over top of the back bedroom and bath and they're moving their bath to the second room here. And having a den in that back room. There's four bedrooms. That will be a bedroom and the old bath and a deck built out. And then a deck after this kitchen. And it has to be rewired and all. Going to cost a fortune. Sold his house to do it. I think he lived out around Hockessin. I think I would have stayed out at Hockessin, but he paid 45 for it. These houses aren't worth $45,000. Thirteen when we bought. And then to think he got 45. I'd sell this and go to an apartment only I think I couldn't ask anybody the price the real estate man said. So, let the family sell it.
Lotter: Do you remember anybody -- like any of your brothers when they were young having part-time jobs to help out --like delivering newspapers or anything like that?
Hazzard: My oldest brother -- you know when they built the tunnel--that's down Rising Sun Hill and go over Main Street, I guess it is, towards Hagey's beer garden. There's a tunnel up back there. Mrs. Copeland lived above it. And to keep the smoke from the train she had this tunnel built. And he was a waterboy up there -- the oldest one -- when he was 13. That was wonderful he thought. And when he was through the eighth grade, he went in to Goldey Beacom and he wrote left-handed. And everybody made fun of him for writing that way. Guess they wanted to correct him, so he quit. Then as soon as he'd get a job, he'd go right up to the top. He was bright, you know. Then the next brother, he was always working around somebody's car. The people were getting old cars, you know, and he'd wear his best suit or anything. And work. Then he'd get mad when the other two boys had better clothes than him. But he got the same amount. Then he went down to the Experimental to work on trucks and things. As you went in the gate, there used to be a great big shed like -- wood, you know, and it was for all the equipment and things. And he worked on them. Then he quit and went to work for Judge Laffey as a chauffeur. Oh, he liked that job -- around cars all the time. Then he went in to business for himself – express business. He used to deliver for several stores and then --that was his own routes, but then he went into express --great big trucks and things. Then he turned it over to his son and his son died real sudden with a heart attack. Never expected it. So, they all –
Lotter: Do you remember any other part-time jobs the boys might have had?
Hazzard: Not up there so much. Whether they got paid for it --they'd always go on the milk wagon and go with them. I don't remember. If they did, they didn't make much. Quarter or 50 cents or something.
Lotter: Well, now milk was delivered daily?
Hazzard: Yeah. Then we had a grocery man. He used to be there right as you come down Rising Sun Lane and then he moved down on Brinckley Avenue -- Gregg. And they come around to all the houses to get their orders. For the day. Come at 7:30 in the morning and then deliver it that afternoon. Used to go all the way around to their old customers.
Lotter: What other stores or other delivery people do you remember?
Hazzard: Glanding. On King Street used to deliver up there.
Lotter: What kind of store was that?
Hazzard: He had a grocery and meat store. Of course, my father went in every Saturday with two market baskets and got the meat for the week and something else. Fruit we wanted. And coffee there. They had a place on King Street. It was Hershey's -- something like that. And get those kind of things. Every Saturday morning he went in. Then as we got older, we could run into Johnson's Meat Market there at 7th and King -- get on the bus and go in.
Lotter: Was there an iceman?
Hazzard: Yeah, an ice wagon came every -- Oh, and we'd forget the pan underneath the ice.
Lotter: Whose job was that?
Hazzard: It was supposed to be the boys’ but nobody would notice it until it was running down the floor.
Lotter: How did the iceman know how much ice to leave at home?
Hazzard: You had a card that you put out. 50 -- 100 -- 25 --you know. Usually 75 pound would fit the ice box. You'd hang the card a certain way. I don't know whether the top that was hanging was what you wanted or the bottom. But you hung the card out.
Lotter: What other delivery people do you remember coming through?
Hazzard: Well, we got our potatoes by the year. Woodward. And honest, those men still look the same as when I was a kid. And he still remembers my name. Got apples from him. And things like that.
Lotter: And you'd get enough to keep you through a whole year?
Hazzard: Yeah. Well, then he came every week -- we'd get a basket of apples every week. Sometimes sweet potatoes and turnips. My father would get all this cabbage at the time when he was making sauerkraut. Oh, gosh, it used to stink when it was fermenting. You'd smell it all the way across. He made it over in that shed, but you could smell it.
Lotter: You could smell it that far -- across the road?
Hazzard: Yeah. And, he'd give everybody sauerkraut. I think he made it for the neighbors. He would send some up with us to school for the nuns. They'd send word down they wanted some. It was so darned cold in the winter to get it out because there would be ice around it, you know, with the water. So, you'd get it all out at one time -- the first of the week -- that was about a Wednesday meal. You know, with pork. And pork was cheap then -- must have been.
Lotter: How long did a barrel of sauerkraut last?
Hazzard: Oh, just up until spring.
Lotter: So, it would pretty much take you through the winter?
Hazzard: Yeah. Have it once a week.
Lotter: Do you remember any other favorite foods? That you had then that you might not eat now? Anything special that your mother made or baked?
Hazzard: If we had ham and cabbage, I would not eat it. I love it now. So expensive now, that's why I like it. But I think hams were too salty then. They didn't cure them. Like they do now. That was one night a week, we had ham and cabbage. I didn't like it.
Lotter: What was your favorite meal?
Hazzard: Roast pork -- or -- whole leg, you know, of pork -- or --anyhow, it would be about this big and it was a leg, anyhow. And I know it wasn't the front part – what do you call that?
Lotter: Was it the loin -- the pork loin?
Hazzard: No, it was the regular. It and brown gravy with mashed potatoes. Had that a lot on Sunday. And they used to put like string beans and beets and things like that in jars, you know.
Lotter: She canned these things?
Hazzard: Yeah. Tomatoes.
Lotter: Anything else that you remember her canning?
Hazzard: Made a lot of catsup. Do you like catsup? I used to like it on just plain bread.
Lotter: Well, if you had a birthday, what might be a typical birthday dinner?
Hazzard: Well, not so much the dinner, but we always had a big cake made. And we'd go up on the hill after supper at night and all the kids around came and we'd have lemonade, cake and candy. No ice-cream. Because it would be melted by the time we got up the hill. That big tree is still standing inside the Experimental gate. There used to be a picnic table around it. It was up at the gunning club like then. Then the golf course. But we always went up there for a picnic. All the kids around. Would go.
Lotter: What kind of cake?
Hazzard: I don't know, but it always had strawberry icing on it --pink.
Lotter: Just some kind of yellow cake?
Hazzard: Yeah.
Lotter: Anything else special you remember about birthdays?
Hazzard: (Noise). Lay on the sofa with it -- take it out in the kitchen and I take it down the cellar. If I'm in the back yard, I take it out and lay it on the porch. And then I'll be able to answer it without running all the way in here.
Lotter: Did you have candles on your birthday cake?
Hazzard: Yeah.
Lotter: Decorated?
Hazzard: No. Never remember it decorated. Guess they didn't do it those days. We would put candles on it, though.
Lotter: Do you remember birthday presents?
Hazzard: Well, when I got older, I remember birthday presents like a string of beads. And when I was 13, my mother --12, I guess. We wanted a ring. She went in to Millard F. Davis and got two Signet rings -- one for me and one for my sister -- with our initials on them. And one of my daughters is still wearing that. Her name is Katherine R. Henry now, and mine was Hazzard -- KRH. But it had KRK on it. She wears that all the time.
Lotter: Do you remember any other jewelry that you had?
Hazzard: Not then. Only the beads this one year.
Lotter: How about the older women like your mother -- did she wear much jewelry?
Hazzard: No. - Hair and clothes; Father's part time work as a barber; Newspapers and magazines; Local parades with a goat cart; Catalogs; Treasured objects; Furniture in the home; Cooking and eating; Storing objects and foodKeywords: Baking; Barbers; Carts; Cellars; Chairs; Closets; Clothes; Cooking; Dishes; Furniture; Goats; Hair; Hairstyles; Kitchens; Living rooms; Locks; Magazines; Meals; Montgomery Ward catalog; Newspapers; Parades; Sears- Roebuck catalog; Sofas; Storage; Stoves; Tables; Utensils; VasesTranscript: Lotter: How about anything special in her hair. You mentioned she had long hair.
Hazzard: Yes. Her hair was so kinky curly -- oh, she would have to pull it straight back and then it started to break here and then she'd pin that back, you know. One son has hair like it; it's kinky all the time. One time she got this -- well -- it wasn't a real pale blue, but it wasn't a dark blue -- suit and then they were wearing slits up the side. Well, we lived up the crick and went to church this Sunday. One of them was making their first Communion. And it was next to the youngest, Joe. And she thought she'd be all dressed up. Well, she was always in such a hurry to get home and have the breakfast – the suit was too tight at the bottom, you know. Oh, my heavens she was furious with this suit. Everybody was telling her how nice she looked. As long as she stood still she looked nice. But she couldn't walk fast enough. And the suit went back the next day. Then she got some kind of grey suit and she never got to wear it, either, because she died that May -- right after. But the blue suit -- it was pretty, too. I can remember. Oh, we thought she looked beautiful. But it only lasted a couple hours and she took it back.
Lotter: Do you remember wearing any combs or anything like that?
Hazzard: Yeah. She always had combs.
Lotter: Any fancy ones?
Hazzard: Well, they would be kinda fancy, but they weren't expensive. And my grandmother had kinky hair. Her hair was grey with little tiny waves. She wore it tight back in a little knot. But mother's was full; wasn't tight.
Lotter: And how did she have it in the back?
Hazzard: She sort of rolled it or turned it under here, you know. Like you see a lot of people having it now.
Lotter: It was fairly long?
Hazzard: Yeah.
Lotter: Did she spend a lot of time brushing it?
Hazzard: She tried to get the curl out of it.
Lotter: Now, how about your hair when you were younger?
Hazzard: It was curly.
Lotter: And it was long?
Hazzard: It was long. Until, I guess until after she died then we had it cut.
Lotter: And who cut your hair?
Hazzard: Well, used to be a barber up the crick cut it the first time -- Connelly. And he never cut girls' hair. My father took us over. Started at our eyes and went around that way -- short -- then it was clippers all the way up the back. When we got home -- I remember my Aunt Katie was taking care of us then, she had fits. "How are you going to church tomorrow looking like that?" she said. (Laughter) But, I can remember it being cut at the top of the ears. Then clippered all the way up. I'd rather had the long hair and pigtails.
Lotter: Well, what about other boys and girls -- did their mothers cut their hair?
Hazzard: My father used to cut all the boys' hair and a lot of kids around there he cut their hair. But my mother wouldn't let him cut our hair. It would have been better if he had cut it. I don't think we would have ended up with a haircut like he took us to the barber.
Lotter: But your mother never cut anyone's hair?
Hazzard: No.
Lotter: Do you remember in your house -- do you ever remember the door being locked?
Hazzard: We never had a key.
Lotter: How about any of your neighbors?
Hazzard: I don't think anybody locked their door. If they walked in, they'd know they were in the wrong place and get out. You never had to be afraid.
Lotter: How about newspapers or magazines? Do you remember any?
Hazzard: Yeah. Lundy's -- they lived across -- and Mrs. Lundy had the paper route and she had sons delivering and a lot of kids would deliver papers, you know. Go over and get their bundles there and go deliver them.
Lotter: This was from her house?
Hazzard: Yeah. The trolley would drop the big bundle off and then one kid would have this side of the crick and another kid, the one out Brecks Lane.
Lotter: Most people took the newspaper?
Hazzard: Yeah. And she had goats and they'd be down over the bridge on this side. Oh, the smell of those goats. And they had a cart like a pony cart. And the goats would pull it. Sampson -- he was the smelliest old goat. Every parade they'd take him to the parade and they'd have a rope on each side of his neck. And whoever was guiding Sampson in the parade would stand by the curb -- if he'd lean too far that way, they'd pull him. He'd come in town here for all the parades --Sampson.
Lotter: What other things do you remember in the parade?
Hazzard: Well, that would be more of like a Democratic parade or somebody winning or something like that. But, Sampson was always in it.
Lotter: Were there ever any parades down along the creek?
Hazzard: Not that I remember.
Lotter: What about magazines? Do you remember any magazines in your house?
Hazzard: The only ones would be somebody coming around --religious magazines or something, you know. They'd sign up for this or that. That's about the only ones. I guess there weren't too many of them.
Lotter: How about catalogues?
Hazzard: Catalogues -- Sears and one from -- what was the other? Ward -- you know, Jefferson Ward -- or Montgomery Ward.
Lotter: Any other magazines or books? Did you do much reading?
Hazzard: We had a lot of books. We'd get them at Christmas and things. My aunt and them and my mother and them --they were great readers. They'd buy a book when they went in town. And one aunt was crazy about detective stories. The one that took care of us after mother died. She'd have all that.
Lotter: As a child, did you have one possession that you valued above all others? Something that meant more to you or that you liked to play with or use?
Hazzard: No, I wouldn't say.
Lotter: Special toy or game? How about your mother -- did she have something that she valued highly?
Hazzard: Oh, she had beautiful vases on the mantelpiece – you know, two. You had to have two then.
Lotter: Do you remember what they looked like?
Hazzard: Yeah. They were blue -- something like that --scalloped, you know -- at the top -- about that high. But, it seemed like after she died and my Aunt Katie come, she got rid of an awful lot of stuff out of the house. And we all wish we had the things that my mother had. Her living room suit, they had it recovered. It was a sofa and a love seat they call the now – a big sofa and a little sofa we called it. And let's see how many chairs? One, two -- four chairs. All upholstered. One was a rocking chair and one was one that come down like this, but then the other came all the way down to the seat -- the wood -- but it was all upholstered. And the other -- now I don't know the black chair -- I doubt' it belonged to the suit. But it was horsehair. And the rocking chair was on a –
Lotter: Like a platform?
Hazzard: Yeah. And when we moved into the city, nothing would do my Aunt Mary. She got rid of it all. And it was beautiful stuff, you know, now. If we only had it now. Years ago, they started to get rid of it. We went all the way up to VanSciver's in Camden and picked out the furniture and then picked out the covering we wanted. It was nice. It was modern.
Lotter: This was what your mother picked out?
Hazzard: No, not my mother, my Aunt Mary.
Lotter: Oh, I see, she replaced it.
Hazzard: After mother died, yeah. Because we never went into the living room only on Sunday in the winter because they wouldn't build a fire in there only when it was cold. But this horsehair chair -- all the company would be sitting on the other -- We always had a lot of company. And, so anyway, no place for us to sit down and we had to make our appearance and sat on that and our bare legs sticking in that horsehair. Awful. That must have belonged to Nanna. Being black, it wouldn't have gone with the other furniture. And, oh boy, that chair lasted a long while. Right close to the stair steps.
Lotter: Did you have a piano or organ?
Hazzard: Later years we had a piano. And a Victrola.
Lotter: Anything else you remember about the living room?
Hazzard: No.
Lotter: What about the kitchen?
Hazzard: It was a big kitchen. A big table and everybody – we lived in there practically. There was plenty of room.
Lotter: Where was the table?
Hazzard: Well, it got pulled out for eating and then it was pushed back by the window and yet you could sit comfortably in it. The sewing machine was out in the kitchen and a big chair on each side. Two windows in the kitchen. They both had deep windowsills. And the windows were little panes. And a big cookstove in the kitchen and a settee. You know what a settee is? Looks like a -- well, you have -- like a sofa only it's wood. Wooden arms and wooden back. And then we had a bed like on it -- flock bed, I think -- and a pillow at each end where you could sit in comfort or lay down on it.
Lotter: So, if someone were sick, they could lie down on it.
Hazzard: Yeah. Crawl up by the stove. That's what they called the men's settees. Several years back when we moved to the city, we moved it on the porch. After all those years, somebody come along buying old things and he offered my aunt $25 for it. She was glad to get the $25 and she did sell it to him.
Lotter: Anything else you remember in the kitchen?
Hazzard: No. That's about all that was in it. Great big cookstove.
Lotter: How many people could sit around the kitchen table?
Hazzard: Well, there were seven children and my father and my mother when she was living and Katie and my grandmother. But, my grandmother would cook her own supper beforehand. She wasn't going to eat what we ate because she liked her fish creamed and different things. So, she would cook her own. Start at four o'clock or right before my mother wanted to start dinner. (Laughter). She was getting old then. If you were having something special, she might taste it. Take a little bit of it.
Lotter: Did she eat by herself then or did she eat with the rest of the family?
Hazzard: She ate by herself while my mother was cooking our dinner. Now, if my other aunts came in -- Katie and them, she'd eat with us. Then we had to wait until the older people sat down. I used to say, "Well, if I ever have kids, they're not going to wait; they're going to eat with all of us."
Lotter: So, you had to eat after they were finished.
Hazzard: Oh, yes, and they'd sit at the table. Especially when these Irish from Chester come down – relatives of Nanna's or something, and they'd sit and they'd sit. And we'd be there waiting to eat. And that was always on Sunday.
Lotter: Was there a sink in your kitchen?
Hazzard: Yeah. Not till later years. We had two big dishpans like this. You wash them and rinse them here and then a big tray to drain them on. We'd take the whole kitchen up, washing the dishes on the table.
Lotter: Oh, I see. You did them right on the table. Now this was on the same table you ate from?
Hazzard: Yeah. Take the tablecloth and all off and stack the dishes up and wash them. Then you rinse them. I remember the big tray, it was like aluminum.
Lotter: And when your mother did her cooking and baking, did she use the kitchen table or did she have another table--a work table?
Hazzard: There was a small table back by the stove she could use.
Lotter: And where did she store all of her dishes?
Hazzard: A big old-fashioned closet in the kitchen – places at the bottom and up top.
Lotter: And how about things she used for cooking -- flour and sugar and all of those things. Where were they kept?
Hazzard: In the room that we called the cellar, right back where we cooked in the summertime.
Lotter: That's where all the food was stored then?
Hazzard: Yeah.
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