Interview with Ethel Jones Hayward, 1987 April 4 [audio]
- Christmas presents, toys, and dolls; Getting milk delivered; Christmas decoration; ClothesSynopsis: Hayward talks about getting dolls for Christmas. She displays and describes some of her old toys, her brother's old toys, and some of her mother's kitchen tools. She says that some of the people in village hauled some loads with goat-drawn carts. She describes some of her winter clothes and Christmas decorations. She displays and describes more toys, and she tells a story about the hobby horse that she shared with her siblings.Keywords: Christmas; Clothes; Decorations; Dolls; Goat carts; Henry Clay (Del.: Village); Irons (Pressing); Milk; Milk deliveries; Scales; Tea sets; ToysTranscript: Hayward: Up until I was around ten, I got a doll every Christmas and all my other dolls were dressed again. That is, their dresses were either washed or, you know, all ready for Christmas, every one of them. And so I thought maybe you might like to go up in my guest room and see where I have them in their setting up there, rather than bring them all down here. Not that I mind to bring them down, I didn't mind that, but we talked it over and I said, "Well, maybe they'd like to go up there and see the dolls." Now that's why the dolls aren't here, they're all up there waiting for you.
Bennett: We'll go and see them. Shall we wait for Dorothy? Yes, wait for Dorothy, because she did not get to see them. When I look back on it now, I don't recall her going up there, that's right. She did say that she hadn’ t seen them. Now that we've turned on the tape recorder, I just want you to know that we appreciate you having us over and I know we are going to enjoy the whole thing, and let's go over here - would you give us a little description of the toys you got for Christmas?
Hayward: Yes, I'd be very happy to. Now the box of puzzles that are here, I think I received those very early, maybe I was only about four or five years of age, and they're encased in this wooden box, you know, and there are blocks that have pictures on every side, so that you can make more than one picture, you know, and the pictures are there for you to follow. My brother received one box and I received the other. Then, I did things with my mother so much, and so I had a little iron, and a holder, just like my mother, that is a holder on my iron which you could detach like my mother could, and she would put it on the far side of the stove so it wouldn't be too hot for me. And I had a little ironing board. I did everything with her, you know. When she cooked, I cooked, so I was given an iron stove, a pretty iron stove which is original and it had the on the top when it came, there was the iron pot to boil and another little iron saucepan and along with it was the coal scuttle and also I had a set of agate dishes. And the agate dishes included a little pudding pan, a roasting pan, a grater, a little dipper and a smaller roasting pan. And I think this was a little roasting pan too, or maybe for vegetables you would put in the oven, you know, to brown. And here is the little basin, and then I had a cup, a rolling pin and the potato masher. So my little stove was very well equipped to cook. See I cooked with my Mother and I delighted to do it. Then I was given a little tea set here on it's special tray which has pictures of really children perhaps going to the circus, at least they're on an elephant here, if you could just see them here. And I have four little china cups left, and also plates and saucers that go with it. And a dear little pitcher and a sugar bowl, and of course the teapot. So I'd have tea parties with my dolls. And then, you know, seeing my Mother and Father weigh things, I was given some scales and I have the little weights to go with that. And also on the table here, is my Mother's potato masher which was made from an old railroad tie. And then here are the, whenever they wanted to weigh anything, these are the old fashioned scales, with the brass.
Bennett: How did that work, it would, is that pounds, the pressure, would that be up to fifty pounds?
Hayward: Yes, it would go up, you know, and they would attach the poultry here, or the piece of meat they wanted to weigh.
Bennett: And it's brass, actually.
Hayward: Yes, it's brass.
Bennett: It would hook into, I guess, the ceiling?
Hayward: Well, I think he had a hook under a shelf in the porch and he would put it on this hook, you see...
Bennett: I see.
Hayward: And then a turkey that he wanted to weigh, or a large roasting chicken, or a large piece of beef.
Bennett: Was this an outside porch, you mean...
Hayward: Outside porch, a little breezeway into, you know, into an outside shed, and he'd go out there to do that. And this is my little goat cart that I had, because very often through the village, people did have goats and they would have little carts and they would harness the goat to the cart and sometimes, if when they wanted to go and get a large quantity of milk, from probably a milkman not too far away, they would get the milk and put it in their goat cart. And so that was very typical to give a little child, you know.
Bennett: I see, so the milk wasn't delivered to your house then?
Hayward: Yes, it was delivered, but then with some of the larger families, and we did not have refrigeration at that time, so all the milk was usually consumed, if you had a large family. There were four children, finally, in our family, but then there were families that had six and eight children, and they would run out of milk much faster than we would. Now the jars sitting back there were the jars that my Father used when the powder was brought in for him to test in the laboratory. He would test the powder for various traits; for moisture, I understand in density and, gravity and so forth. And for instance, some of the powder was used for explosives, you know as dynamite when they wanted to open – well for instance when our West was opened up, a lot of the DuPont powder was used. And then there was a certain kind of powder that was used for guns and rifles, so the testing was all according to what the powder was going to be used for.
And all the powder at that time was sent to the laboratory in the Hagley Yards. So I remember going to the testing yard, carry my Father lunch, you know. I remember going past the salt peter place and I know my Father took me in there one time and I had to take my shoes off, couldn't go in there, you know, when you had shoes on. So it was all very interesting, yes.
Bennett: Would you describe the bank, please?
Hayward: Yes, the bank, on the right of the bank is a Wigwam and there's a little Indian man sitting there in his wigwam and he's holding his fish and he probably is trying to catch the fish in the pond. Well, there's a frog in that pond and he doesn't realize this frog also likes the fish I suppose, and just halfway, well we'll say in the middle of the bank there's a little spot where you can put your penny, your dime, your nickle, maybe even a quarter, and there's a little button and when you push the button(noise as she demonstrates bank) my, the frog comes up to get the fish and then the Indian boy or Indian man, he holds the fish up high. There are also little ducks on the pond.
Bennett: Now that's iron - is that a lily pad there too? I think so, yes.
Hayward: Yes, a lily pad, and it is iron and painted a dull green, I think it is a dull green.
Bennett: It was all just, all green.
Hayward: Yes, this is the original.
Bennett: And then the goat cart is also, its metal, it's iron?
Hayward: It's iron.
Bennett: Did the milkman ever use a goat cart to deliver milk, or how did they come with milk, do you recall?
Hayward: The milk that was delivered to us, I described that in my book, it was delivered by a man by the name of Mr. Ball and he did have a horse and wagon.
Bennett: Oh, he had a horse and wagon.
Hayward: Now what he did, my Mother would put a large pitcher out, it would hold a quart or two quarts of milk, and he would come up with his large can and pour the milk in there. The minute he left, my Mother went right out to get it, of course. And he delivered six days a week, but not on Sunday, so we had to be very careful to use the...
Bennett: Did you get extra milk on Saturday?
Hayward: We usually got the extra milk on Saturday. As I said before we, and he was a very faithful man - no matter how cold the weather was, he came and he never failed us, Mr. Ball, I remember that very well, Mr. Ball.
Bennett: I thank you. Now let's look at the animals that you had under your Christmas tree. This is the same picture that is in your book, isn't it?
Bennett: But it's a little more clear. You're right. Oh, look at this one, Marge. Look at the - there's a parasol, a wheel barrow, a fence around with - there's people inside there and there's ducks I guess it is.
Hayward: Yes, we had a pond.
Bennett: And the animals are, actually they're thin wood.
Hayward: They're thin wood, I wish I had more because I remember we had the sheep too.
Bennett: And it's heavier than a balsa and they're really etched in black on the natural color wood, then they're on a stand. What kind of a stand, what kind of a stand would you call that?
Hayward: Just a little wooden stand.
Bennett: This was 1905 - you have the pig and the cow.
Hayward: Yes, are they alike on both sides?
Bennett: Yes, and on each side, yes.
Hayward: I labeled a great many things 1905 because I guess I -- well I know I remember things before that, you know, but of course until I was ten years old, as I said, I got the dolls and got the toys at different times. Then after I was ten, I guess I was growing up a little, and then I would receive various pieces of clothing. I remember when I was about eleven receiving a beautiful muff, I had a lovely muff, you know, that I wore to Sunday School and church.
Bennett: Was it wool or fur?
Hayward: It was fur, a gray fur.
Bennett: What kind of fur?
Hayward: Well, I don't know the kind of fur, really, never asked my Mother, but it must have been very nice because I had it a long, long time. In fact later when I was in high school and several of the girls did have fur hats, my Mother ripped the muff up and made me a fur hat out of the muff, which I wore for years.
Bennett: Out of the muff?
Hayward: Yes, she could, she was very, very clever. We had the hobby horse all our lives, for all of us. Of course there were only two children when this picture was taken. That was my older brother and myself, I was only 21 months younger than my brother, so many times I got almost exactly what he got, you know. And picture books were almost always the same, so because I guess I was so close to him in age now I'm sorry I don't have that particular coach. The one upstairs is the one that I got when I was eight years of age, and the doll is there in that coach which you will see. And it was a different style coach. I must have - I remember this coach.
Bennett: You remember the coach?
Hayward: Yes, and I remember - I must have been very, very small – I remember, I think I had had my - maybe my second birthday, and this was the spring, when we moved to the Charles I. du Pont home, and I remember wheeling this coach, only two years old, and insisted on, you know, pushing the coach to the new house. And it has a little umbrella, with the top, and I think I have this doll, I still have the doll. But you notice she has a lovely pillow back of her.
Bennett: Yes, ruffly.
Hayward: Yes. Now in the wheel barrow, I think are those, perhaps those blocks, or they may have been another set of blocks...
Bennett: Yes, it could be.
Hayward: And I think that was a top, I remember we had a large top that we could spin.
Bennett: Is the wheel barrow made of wood, do you remember?
Hayward: It was wood, and it was my brother's wheel barrow.
Bennett: A wooden wheel barrow. I don't see the top, where...It's right there in the front, I think, in kind of a box, or it could have been - now, when I think about it, I don't think it was the top, it was one of those boxes where you had one box inside another.
Bennett: Yes, okay.
Hayward: We had several of those, sorry I don't have one of those, but we used to play with those, you know, so much. Now close to the fence is my brother's fire engine, and then you can see his train, his iron...
Bennett: How many horses with the fire engine - there's two, or is that two, that's two separate fire engines?
Hayward: Yes, I think one...
Bennett: And each one has two horses, see there...
Hayward: I think one carried the water, you know, the one at the left. And then the other, I guess must have had ladders or something.
Bennett: Yes. And these were all metal?
Hayward: Yes. They were, well, they were iron, they were iron, yes.
- Christmas decorationSynopsis: Mrs. Hayward describes her family's Christmas tree, Christmas tree stand, and how they procured a Christmas tree every year. She shows the interviewers a photograph of her family's Christmas tree when they lived in Squirrel Run. She describes how her grandfather from Harrington, Del., made some of her family's Christmas decorations. They discuss how few people in the area had a Christmas tree.Keywords: Christmas; Christmas trees; Harrington, Del.; Squirrel Run (Del.: Village)Transcript: Bennett: Mrs. Hayward, what kind of stand is holding that tree up, looks like steps.
Hayward: It was a stand that my Father had made especially and we used that for years and years. I don't know whether it was a solid block of wood where they had carved those steps, you know.
Bennett: It looks like steps, doesn’ t it?
Hayward: Yes, it was a larger block and then a smaller one and a smaller one, there were four of them, you know, one on top of the other, each one smaller.
Bennett: Were they separate, or was it solid?
Hayward: No, it was altogether, and that's what I say, I don't know whether it was one block of wood.
Bennett: Okay, I understand.
Hayward: Now, you see the trees, we had those - they were artificial.
Bennett: Oh, the trees near the pond?
Hayward: Yes, and then there's one in the corner there, and you can notice the gate to the yard there near the that's on the right there, the two posts to the little gate?
Bennett: Yes, yes.
Hayward: And then there's an axe in there, you see that axe?
Bennett: Yes, in back.
Hayward: And as far as I know, that was my brother's and it was wooden, it was a wooden axe that he had, you know, because he went with his Father and did everything his Father did, or tried to.
Bennett: That would be to chop down a tree, I guess.
Hayward: Yes, to chop, now the figurines, I remember them well, but they had belonged to my Grandmother and they were china, those little figurines, but unfortunately they did get broken with four children, I was awfully sorry.
Bennett: More like a doll, would they be like...
Hayward: They would be, well you've seen them today haven't you, the little old fashioned ladies or girls, you know, in china or porcelain?
Hayward: I think these were china, though.
Bennett: What is the fence made of, is that wood?
Hayward: That was wood.
Bennett: Was it painted?
Hayward: Painted, yes, white, and the little posts were red.
Bennett: Oh, okay, the posts were red, with white...
Hayward: Yes, and then we had a barn and a house. Now I can just see a little bit of the house at the right there near the Christmas tree stand, and then I think over to the left was the barn. We had a large barn, it looked large to us, and a dear little house. I just wish I had those.
Bennett: Uh-huh, I can imagine.
Hayward: Now this was in Squirrel Run and it's an inside picture of the home there. The picture back is a picture of my aunt. Now I think that picture on the left of the little girl is just a calendar.
Bennett: Oh, on the left is a calendar?
Hayward: Yes, I think that was a calendar. And then there were wreaths, you see, they would often put them on a corner of a large picture at that time.
Bennett: Was that - is that a bow on the wreath?
Hayward: Yes, it probably is a bow.
Bennett: And it looks like, I don't know whether it would be flowers or fruit, would it be more like a Della Robia do you recall?
Hayward: I don't think it was fruit, I think it had probably holly berries, you know, holly berries through it.
Bennett: It looks larger than berries or nuts of some kind, the size of a nut maybe, you see, there...
Hayward: Oh yes. What does it show you with the magnifier, can you see?
Bennett: Oh I see, it does look like ribbons or maybe nuts, doesn't it. Now that could be, could have had nuts in it, I'm not sure. I don't remember later wreaths like that. My grandfather came from Harrington and he would make mother and dad wreaths, because they had so many holly trees down there, and he would bring them up, and we rarely ever bought the wreaths, they were made by her father, yes.
Bennett: Is the one on the right different than the one on the left, decorated, I mean?
Hayward: Yes, I think it seems, you know, you can see the center of it better, don't you think?
Bennett: Yes, yes you can.
Hayward: And I think that stair door, I just always imagined must have gone up to the third level of the house, probably an attic. Now as far - I was studying the Christmas tree quite a bit, and there are real Christmas balls there, you know, that you could buy. I guess at that time. And I remember there were beautiful angels too, they were very much like a Valentine, lace, you know, all around them and the angel in the middle. And then you notice the American flag?
Bennett: Yes, yes.
Hayward: My Father was very patriotic, a very patriotic man, and we never had a Christmas tree without the American flag, always the American flag was there. You'll notice an angel there in the - maybe I'm not holding it very well for you there - there's an angel right here at the top. I remember those...
Bennett: Right beside the American flag and up a little tiny bit, Marge.
Hayward: Yes, yes, it's right there. It's such a pretty little angel. Then in the middle of the tree, I remember that was like a slipper, right here, I'll point to it, right there. And in this slipper was another little angel peeping out of the slipper and I thought, as a child, that was one of my favorite things, you know, that was on the tree.
Bennett: Was this made of the glass like the balls, or was it a china slipper?
Hayward: No, it was made of sort of a cloth.
Bennett: Oh, a cloth slipper, okay.
Hayward: Yes, it was a cloth slipper and a little angel in it. I think she was really paper, you know, just a little paper angel. And if you'll notice, there were strings of beads beside the tinsel trimming. So, in a way, it was very elaborate, wasn't it?
Bennett: Yes it was. Did you have any cornucopias on there? I don't remember those.
Hayward: I don't see any.
Bennett: There's two little angels, one up here too, at the very top.
Hayward: At the very top, yes, I see that. And even a ball up here.
Bennett: Hanging from, Marge, on the ceiling, right under the one that's on the ceiling, the one that's on the ceiling, the long one is an angel. Yes, a little angel. Do you see it? I'm not sure if this is it or not.
Hayward: Maybe you could take the big glass and look, I brought that down for that reason.
Bennett: Here, and that's in the center of the cloth, the angel with the slipper.
Hayward: Maybe you'd like to hold it now.
Bennett: Now the cloth slipper would be something that was purchased, it wasn't something that you made?
Hayward: Oh yes, yes, and the Christmas ball - no, Mother never made anything on the tree.
Bennett: Oh I see, so all of these were purchased?
Hayward: Purchased, yes.
Hayward: I imagine in Wilmington, the City of Wilmington because Mother used to go in the city.
Mr. Hayward: Your friend's here.
Hayward: Oh, is Dorothy here, oh that's nice.
Bennett: Did Cavanaugh's have things like Christmas...
Hayward: Not that I remember, not that I remember, they just sold groceries, you know, and they had the mail, the mail came to the store. Dorothy, it's so nice to see you, Dear, it's so nice that you could come.
Johnson: Glad to be here, thank you.
Bennett: We're just discussing the tree stand again, and you said it was a solid block of wood with a center cutout...
Hayward: That's right, correct.
Bennett: And your Dad would shape the trunk of the tree to fit into that...
Hayward: To fit into it.
Bennett: And it was painted green, the stand was painted green?
Hayward: It was painted green as I remember, to match the tree, I suppose.
Bennett: Yes. Where did you get your tree?
Hayward: I think my Father must have gone into, perhaps a field or a woods. He cut the tree himself most of the time. Later he did buy the trees when they came into the market on King Street, but the early trees, I remember that he would go and cut the tree himself, either ask permission, you know, the people who owned the tract of land, but most of the time for a great many years, I remember he cut his own tree, had his own axe and did that. And my brother went along with him little as he was.
Bennett: With his axe.
Hayward: With his little axe, yes.
Bennett: And how did he get the tree home?
Hayward: Well, he usually just, you know, would drag it down the road, he had no conveyance.
Bennett: So he would usually find it, get it nearby?
Hayward: Yes, get it nearby, yes. And of course, at that time there were very few houses around, you know, and there were such open fields, the woods open, and you could just go in and do that sort of thing, you know, or he may have asked permission, I'm sure he did. He was never in trouble about it.
Bennett: Well I'm sure everybody was generous with trees, except that, you know Mrs. Hayward, we've all done oral histories, and I have only spoken with one lady that had a tree, and that was down the street from the C.I.D., that was the Hackendorns. They had a tree.
Hayward: Did they?
Bennett: And I understand the Millers that lived at the corner there, Barley Mill Road, that they had a tree.
Hayward: Oh yes, yes.
Bennett: But Mrs. Lotter, she didn't have anybody with a tree. Did you Dorothy?
Johnson: Mrs. Cheney had a tree.
Bennett: Just Mrs. Cheney?
- Friends and school; Christmas presents; Clothes and laceSynopsis: Hayward talks about the Cheney family and how she was friendly with the children when she was growing up. The interviewers look at some crocheted and embroidered decorations. Hayward talks about decorating the family Christmas tree and gift presentation. She talks about clothes and how she had a talented aunt who made lace trim for a lot of her clothes.Keywords: Alexis I. du Pont School (Wilmington, Del.); Cheney family; Christ Church Christiana Hundred (Wilmington, Del.); Christmas trees; Clothes; Crochet; Embroidery; Free Park (Del.: Village); UnderwearTranscript: Johnson: Oh yes, yes I know...She lived next to the Gibbons House.
Hayward: That's right, her father, I think, lost his arm. Did she ever tell you that?
Johnson: That's right.
Hayward: In the powder, and I guess up to that time, he probably ran one of the mills or something else, I don't know. But then, with the loss of his arm, then he was the keeper at the gates there, the centennial gates. A very lovely man, he was just lovely really. In fact I liked the Cheney family very much. Elsie was closer to my age, and then Catherine, I think, was next. Well I knew Catherine, I don't know whether she would remember me now, but they went to high school and Elsie graduated. She graduated when the high school was a three-year high. Our class, in 1918,was the first class to graduate from four-year when they went from three years to four years. But I'm very sure, now Elsie could be younger, a little younger, and maybe she did graduate from the four year, but I'm sure Catherine did, she graduated from the four year. But Elsie's deceased, is she not?
Johnson: I think that's right.
Hayward: And they were very pretty girls and their parents took such good care of them, they had such pretty dresses and their hair was always done so pretty.
Johnson: What color was it, do you remember?
Hayward: Blonde, they were blondes, very nice girls, they really were. Yes, I used to go up and visit Elsie, you know.
Johnson: She said they had a horse there, did you ride their horse?
Hayward: No, I never did that, but I remember the horse, yes, and the meadow near their house, you know. But they lived just a little bit beyond what we called Free Park at that time. Now a lot of people called it Flea Park. It was really pretty, and I used to go up there. They were members of Christ 'Episcopal Church, the Cheneys were. I think my sister knew Catherine quite well. But Catherine being younger, I didn't know her quite as well, but I remember she was a very nice girl.
Johnson: She said that they used to cut trees on Judge Bradford's property, he lived right behind them.
Johnson: He would give them permission to cut his trees at Christmas.
Hayward: Yes, at Christmas. I'm sure that's the way it was. But their mother, I think must have - could sew, because they had lovely clothes, I remember they were always dressed so nicely, you know, when they came to school. And their hair was taken, you could just tell it was taken extra good care, you know, it was so pretty, they had beautiful hair.
Johnson: Well there's a picture of her with a big bow in her hair isn't there?
Johnson: Yes, and long curls.
Bennett: With the long curls and big bow.
Hayward: Yes, yes. That was-- are you speaking of Elsie or Catherine?
Johnson: Catherine, I think it is Catherine.
Hayward: Well there's a nine-year-old picture - I think I have a - I'm not sure whether I have a bow in my hair or not in that picture in the book. It's right there isn't that funny, but I think I did. Yes, there's my bow.
Bennett: There you are, oh yes. They were popular in those days weren't they? Bows?
Hayward: Yes, bows and ribbons, you know. It was a lovely place to really live, you know, and grow up in that area, it was so picturesque with the waterfall and the woods and the fields. I loved the wildflowers very, very much and I have written, oh over a hundred poems about wildflowers of this area, yes. May have those printed, I don't know. That man who did this book, Mr. Reese, his company's called "Impressions Unlimited" and when he delivered these books, he stood at the door, he said, "You still have work to do you know, you have to do something about those poems."
Johnson: Did you wear high-buttoned shoes like these?
Hayward: A. Yes, oh yes, yes.
Johnson: Do you remember when you started wearing low shoes?
Hayward: Well I may have had - in the summer sometimes we had little sandals, you know, little brown sandals and sometimes a little white one, but in the winter they were always the button shoes. Then I think I must have been about fourteen when my Mother let me have like a little slipper to wear, you know. She wouldn't let me have heels until I was sixteen. And when I put my high heels on, I said I shall never take them off, so I still have high heels.
Bennett: I was looking at that, your heels are higher than mine. This looks like Santa Claus on a ball.
Hayward: Yes, yes it does.
Bennett: I can't figure out what these are here, something...It's a snowflake?
Hayward: Something lacy, up there on the top there.
Bennett: Like a wreath with a - crocheted or...
Johnson: This also looks like another wreath down near the bottom.
Hayward: That could be.
Bennett: Yes, I'll ask you about that, Mrs. Hayward, I'll show you what we're talking about. It almost looks like the size of an embroidery hoop, something like that doesn't it? With a picture in it maybe with crochet and maybe netting? There's a swan. We had some of those kind of balls, I remember that. I'll show you what I mean.
Hayward: I only have those two pictures, one is a little more faded than the other. I had another copy which my niece wanted for framing and so she got that one.
Bennett: This and this.
Hayward: Oh yes.
Bennett: They look...
Hayward: This was an angel I think.
Bennett: Inside of something round, is it net?
Hayward: Yes, yes.
Bennett: Okay. The top one was an angel.
Hayward: That's right, that was the angel, you can see her very plain. Oh, it looks like she's in a half moon.
Bennett: In a circle with net or crochet, perhaps, around it.
Hayward: That's right.
Bennett: And what's the one at the bottom. That's another wreath.
Hayward: Yes, sort of a round wreath like she's sitting in it, yes. And of course my Mother was very careful about putting these balls away and we had them for years and years.
Bennett: Dorothy, did you see the animals? Now they were under their tree.
Hayward: Oh, we had more than that, but they were the only ones I really rescued.
Bennett: Do you remember which other kinds of animals you had?
Hayward: We had sheep, little sheep too. The sheep and the cow, I don’ t know, there could have been a horse too, wasn’ t too sure about that.
Bennett: It's really not cut out exactly to the shape, it's just more or less in an outline.
Hayward: Yes, yes it is. It's really crude I guess in a way.
Bennett: He lost his nose. And the ducks on the pond, were those china?
Hayward: They were china, yes, the ducks, that's right.
Bennett: Oh, we've got our work cut out for us, we have to find china ducks.
Hayward: Are you going to try to recreate a Christmas tree in the Gibbons House?
Bennett: Yes, yes, in the Gibbons House. With gifts underneath and so forth. Hopefully, if we can find a few toys and gifts.
Hayward: Oh, that would be lovely.
Bennett: Now, did your parents wrap a present for you, or were there wrapped gifts?
Hayward: No, never, they were always set up, you know...
Bennett: Your toys?
Hayward: ...just like we were ready to pick them up and play with. They were never wrapped or anything.
Bennett: How did you, if you gave a present to someone, or if there was an exchange of gifts, how were they wrapped?
Hayward: As I recall, there was rarely an exchange of gifts, you know. Now my Father always got my Mother a lovely box of chocolates from Reynolds, and that seemed to be his gift to her at Christmastime, you know. And this lovely box, I remember that very well. But as far as an exchange - she had one brother, but there was never like a gift exchanged between herself and her brother. It just seemed like Christmas was more or less confined to the family. Now when I was in high school, you know, I did get little gifts from my girl friends when I reached that, and they were wrapped, but when I was little, there were no gifts between the children in the neighborhood. I think it was because there wasn't that much money, you know, that we...
Bennett: Clothing, if it were given as a gift, that seems to be a common thing, would be socks or...
Hayward: True. Now another had an aunt that could crochet beautifully, and it was the aunt I was named for, and so every piece of clothing I had, had crochet on it. It had lace of some sort, and I think I was speaking to you...
Bennett: My Mother called it a drawer body and it held my little panties up, you know.
Bennett: Yes, like an undershirt would be, a drawer body. Over the shoulders...
Johnson: Were there buttons on it?
Hayward: Yes, it would be buttoned in the front, you know, buttoned, and sometimes it had eyelet around and my Mother put pink, you know, in case it showed above my dress or my little petticoat or something. But most of my petticoats fit around my waist, you see, and she would have this pink ribbon in this eyelet, because underneath what she called the drawer body was my shirt, I wore a shirt too.
Bennett: Long sleeved?
Hayward: Well, in the wintertime it was, and then I had just a little, thin cotton shirt in the summertime. But I always had these drawer bodies, summer or winter and then the drawer body had buttons on it and of course then my panties were buttoned to that, they were all buttoned to that.
Bennett: Before elastic.
Hayward: That was before elastic, yes.
Bennett: Was there any kind of a drawstring in the top of the panties?
Hayward: No, the panties just fit me, you know, Mother used to make them, then his aunt would crochet a little, well just a little bit of crocheted lace around my panties and that matched the drawer body. Then my petticoats had the larger lace, pineapple design most of them were, but everything I wore had her lace on it. The minute Mother made me any undergarment, it was given over to my aunt and she – and she made the lace ahead of time, she was always making lace, you know, crocheting it. So I remember I think I was a little vain. I was telling my husband about it, because I'd go to school and, you know, very shyly, you know, I would let people know I had lace on my petticoat. Wasn't that terrible, but I would do that, you know, 'cause there were so few children had that you know, but I was just so proud of it, you know, and I'd just make sure, you know, nobody was looking - just a little bit of my lace was showing. I think maybe I was a little bit vain or something at that age.
Bennett: You wanted it to show.
Hayward: Yes, I wanted it to show.
- The hobby horse and other toys; Saloons and taverns; Christmas giftsSynopsis: Hayward describes the hobby horse that she shared with her siblings in great detail. She talks about some of her brother's iron toys and how they liked to play together. She talks about the memoir that she wrote about growing up in Henry Clay. She shows a doll that she got for Christmas when she was a young child.Keywords: Hagee's tavern; Henry Clay (Del.: Village); Iron toys; ToysTranscript: Bennett: While we're still looking at the picture, Mrs. Hayward, can you tell me a little bit more about the hobby horse?
Hayward: Yes, the hobby horse...
Bennett: It looks like there's hair.
Hayward: Yes, the hobby horse had a very nice mane, he really did, and then you could ride back and forth, you know, with it, it was a very wonderful rocking horse, really.
Bennett: What are the ears made of, I can't tell?
Hayward: I think they were leather, pieces of leather, yes, as far as I recall. But we all loved that rocking horse, you know. It could be adjusted so you could really rock in it, rock it back and forth you know. It was very adjustable.
Bennett: Looks like the horse's all white.
Hayward: Yes, most of it was white. I think it was a little bit dappled too, you know, you've seen horses like that. But we all used that, and I was sorry to see it go, but it was given to the Good Will, and the man, he asked my brother if he could have it, because he had little children, the man who drove the truck. But you know when you're cleaning - and we had a large home there on Hamilton Street in the Highlands -and when you're cleaning out - and I let my little trunk go, and several little things that I really should have kept. My ironing board went, and I was living in Trenton, you know my husband had a downtown church, very much comparable to Grace Church at the time, about that size, and we didn't have, really, a lot of room for storage, you know, too, so I had to let some things go. When we go upstairs to see the dolls, on the way up I'll show you my table, I have a tea table.
Bennett: Oh yes.
Hayward: And it has - it's right near my desk and I use it for books and all.
Bennett: Is there anything in particular you remember about your brother's train?
Hayward: Except that it was iron and I think parts of it were painted red, same with the fire engine, it was painted red too, yes.
Bennett: Did it have a track, or did he just roll it along the rug?
Hayward: He just, he know - that's right. And my older brother, you know I'd out these paper dolls, and when we'd play together, you know, I was just very sincere about things, so he had an open car where I could put my dolls in, a couple of them, and I'd have these dolls cut out so nice, and he'd say, "Well, how many passengers." and everything. He'd be like the conductor, and then he'd either run it back of the desk or back of the couch like you're sitting, in the living room, you know, but he'd go back there and-then of course there was always a wreck. And their heads would come off and my Mother would scold him, you know. Oh he was really something. And then another thing we played was father and mother and I guess - now I don't refer to the saloons – I speak of Hagley in this book, but I don't really refer to the saloons, but I passed three saloons on my way to Sunday School. Well really four counting Hagee's Tavern, but I didn't mention it because I didn't want my book to be an offense to anybody, any descendant whose grandfather may have run those, you know, saloons, and maybe one of the great-grandchildren might not have favored what their grandfather did, I don't know. But I decided, but I really can tell some stories about the saloons, but I didn't want to offend anybody, that was the least I really wanted to know. Because I wrote it primarily for the children and grandchildren and great-grandchildren of any of the families that might not have any record of their, you know, the people who lived there and so forth. In fact, there's a man came to our church, he married a lady from our church, and his name was Lloyd, a Mr. Paul Lloyd, and I didn't know he had any relationship to Henry Clay, but I knew his father, Leon Lloyd very well, went to school with him, also knew his mother who was Sadie Toomey, and he must have heard of my book, he hadn't gone to get it then, but he heard of it. And so on Sunday morning he stopped me and I just spoke to the man because he hadn't been coming too much, and he said, "Could I speak to you, Mrs. Hayward?" And I said, "Oh, of course," And then he said, "Well, someone came across your book and they told me that you had written about Henry Clay. I lived in Henry Clay." And I said, "You couldn't be Leon Lloyd's son, could you? He said, "Yes, I was.” I said, "Oh, your father was a very nice boy, I remember going to school with him, sledding with him. And did he marry a girl in the village?" He said, "Yes, he married Sadie Toomey," I said, Oh, I knew Sadie so well and went to school with her and did sledding and so forth." Well, that man really warmed up to me, you know, because I was speaking of his mother and his father. It was such a nice encounter really. Well, we still get together and talk about what was going on in the Village, you know. But they were really a very nice family and they lived in a house just about the Experimental Station, after they opened the Experimental Station. There were housed up the hill and the Lloyd's lived there. And Leon was really in my class, but we only had twelve that graduated because when some of the boys and girls reached sixteen, they were from a larger family and they felt that they needed what they could bring in financially, and so they would either go to work in the mills or, really in the Hagley Mills, or in the cotton mill, you know, across the Brandywine there opposite Breck's Mill, but they were still my friends. And lovely friends, although they didn't, you know, finish school. But that was really a very pleasant encounter with Mr. Paul Lloyd. And he still is a very fine looking man, and his father was too and Sadie was a very sweet girl. She went to the Catholic church, but his father was a Protestant, so I take it he was Protestant because he comes to our Methodist church. But anyway, I told him the last time, well you had a lovely mother, I know that, I liked Sadie so well. But there were many families who were very fine families who couldn't help their father's going to the saloons, you know. And a portion of the checks were used, you know, for that consumption, beer or whatever they would drink. And I went with two little girls who really paid dearly for their father's habit and they never had any warm coat, and rarely had a hat. Went all winter... (tape ends)
Hayward: This is the coach, which isn't the coach which you saw in that picture, but this coach had an umbrella too. New I don't know what happened to the umbrella, but there's a place here where an umbrella could be. This is her hat, she's dressed in everything she had on that Christmas morning, except these beads which are on my Mother's wedding dress, she's wearing those.
Bennett: Oh, imagine. But isn't she just gorgeous? Oh, she's beautiful.
Hayward: She's a beautiful doll, this is her original wig and this is my Mother's idea, this little lace.
Bennett: Look at the hands.
Hayward: Yes, and all her fingers are there. Now this little umbrella was given to me by a girl in our very last church because - I never took the dolls around, but we had a lovely stage in our church, and I did give lectures on the dolls to various organizations, you know. Some of them were this golden age groups and then others weren't. But they would draw the curtain and I thought about getting the pictures out, my husband took pictures of the setting. I had my little tea table, you know, with the highchair with the children having tea and everything. Oh, one group was a mother and daughter banquet and when the curtain parted, the little girls that were in, just made one dash, but their mothers got so upset. And I said, let they stay there and talk, you know, just let them take a nice look at the dolls. But you know they just couldn't resist looking at them. And there was a little girl in our church, and she had this umbrella...
Bennett: Isn't that beautiful.
Hayward: And she wanted - she saw the dolls, and I have no way of, I wish I had a way of fixing it, but I'd hate to destroy this because it's the hare and the tortoise, story of the hare and the tortoise, and it's in perfect condition.
Bennett: It certainly is.
Hayward: And I told her mother, I said she doesn't want to give up that little umbrella. She said she does, and I want to teach her to give, and it was her idea, and that same little girl gave me a bride doll, her bride doll. It's funny how children are, but her mother wouldn't let her take it back, she said, no, it's want she wants to do, let her do it. But I put the little umbrella here, and see she has velvet there, I could take her out and let you see her. And then her petticoats are her original petticoats.
Bennett: Oh, look at the lace, oh that's beautiful.
Hayward: And the tucks - this is her original, and you know at that time little girls had two petticoats, and the doll has two petticoats.
Bennett: Her stockings are beautiful.
Hayward: Yes, yes. And she has a little pink lace top, see there, the panties match, everything matches. You don't mind, do you dear?
Bennett: I was just looking at how her legs are jointed there.
Hayward: Yes, they're jointed. Now she's a Marseilles doll, of German make, German bisque doll and she's really, I don't know what her price would be, you know.
Hayward: She's antique, I have no idea - I guess she'd sell for about four hundred dollars or something.
Bennett: Oh, I would imagine, I don't know those kind of things.
Hayward: Especially with original clothes.
Bennett: Isn't that lace beautiful?
Hayward: That's the original lace. And see my Mother put tucks, and look at this – see, I think the other one, no, the other one doesn't have that little waist.
Johnson: Now your mother made all of these clothes?
Hayward: She made them all, yes.
Johnson: Did any of these dolls come already dressed?
Hayward: No, she'd always get them undressed, as far as I know. There she is.
Bennett: Now I notice she also has joints at her wrist?
Hayward: Yes, yes.
Bennett: And how about her elbow?
Hayward: Elbows, yes, see.
Bennett: And her head, does her head move?
Hayward: Yes, yes she can move her head. Don't, don't, but it does...
Bennett: And her eyes close?
Hayward: Yes, that's her original eyes. Yes, they close. Oh yes, look at that.
Bennett: Oh, isn't she beautiful? She's just beautiful. Oh, she is lovely. And a little dimple in her chin, oh just beautiful.
- Little sister's death from pneumonia; Dolls and doll clothingSynopsis: Hayward talks about her little sister Beatrice's death from pneumonia. She describes one of her dolls that her little sister picked out as her favorite. She talks about some other dolls in her collection, and the doll clothes, which her mother made. She describes her mother's handiwork and recalls having a doll nearly as large as her, which her brother destroyed. She describes some of her other dolls and their wigs.Keywords: Charles I du Pont House; Clothes; Dolls; Henry Clay (Del.: Village); PneumoniaTranscript: Hayward: Now, there's a story, you know, in the book about this doll. You know I lost my first sister, my younger sister never saw her, Beatrice, she was born when I was seven years old, and she only had one Christmas with us. She was born in October, her name's Beatrice Victoria, and it was sad, because she was the one child that looked like my Mother. My Mother was a brunette with dark blue eyes, and that's why my eyes are dark blue. I say nobody would know I have dark blue unless I wear blue, you know, but I have blue eyes. So that Christmas, this doll and coach was given to me, I was eight years old, and the other coach in the picture, I think, had worn out, and she had given me this. Well when Beatrice saw this doll, you see, she was a little over a year old, and when I would pick it up, she would say, "My doll, my doll." And I would let her have it, and my Mother would say, "Now she's gonna get dolls like that later, don't you let her have it. But I couldn't resist it and I'd say, "I'll watch her, Mommy, I'll watch her." And she would carry it around, but the minute I would pick it up, she would run to me, "My doll, my doll.” So she died with pneumonia and of course in those days they didn’ t have drugs, you know, and she died on Palm Sunday night, about ten minutes of twelve. My aunt and uncle came out and I just knew something very sad was going on and of course she was very sick in her crib. And the side was down, and while my mother was getting supper, I go and get this doll and I said, "Beatrice, this is your doll and you can have it. It's not my doll now." And I truly gave her over this doll. But she was dying really, I guess, and she kind of glanced at the doll like that, and she went and turned her head.
Bennett: You've got me crying.
Hayward: Well, it broke my heart and I said, "Don't you want my doll? I gave you my doll, Beatrice." No response, she just laid there. Well I picked up my doll and I ran to the kitchen crying and my aunt said - my aunt was very fond of me, she was not my blood aunt, her husband was my blood uncle. She said, "Honey, now you come here. Now what's the matter with you. Why are you crying, you've got your doll?" Mother said, "What is wrong, dear?" I said, "Oh, I gave my doll to Beatrice, she doesn't want it. Is she gonna die?” I suddenly realized she was gonna die. And my Mother said, "I hope not, dear." I couldn't get over it, you know, I just couldn't. And finally after my dinner, I was put to bed, you know, I never saw my sister again and she died about five minutes of twelve. And, well, that's another story. I had a terrible time dealing with that, you know, so this doll is very special to me, you know. And so she went with me when I first got married to the first parsonage, she was always with me after that. And I said, well, she's just kind of special that one doll.
Bennett: Is that a cape on the back of her?
Hayward: Yes, now I wanted to tell you about that. When I took her out in the wintertime, she had this cape lined with...
Bennett: Oh, look at that. It's flannel...
Hayward: Flannel, and that's what she wore when I took her out. I really had a very sweet Mother.
Bennett: Yes you did.
Hayward: And she saved all these things. Now my younger sister, you know, was born ten months later and was supposed to be born on my birthday, but she chose her own day and she was born the day after. But she had some beautiful dolls, she has them in her apartment. She had her own dolls, we all had our own dolls, and Mother never took my dresses or my dolls, you know. Now this one, oh, and here's her cover for her blanket, for her coach.
Bennett: Oh, look at that - it's lined. Isn't that pretty!
Hayward: Lined, that’ s her cover when I took her out in the coach.
Bennett: She must have been the best dressed doll in the neighborhood.
Hayward: Oh she was, she was. And I would share the dolls with my friends, especially these two little friends who had so little. They spent Christmas and Easter with me because they never had anything because of their father going to the saloon, so it was sad.
Now this is my chair, my little rocker, that's my rocker, but we had a rush bottom seat put in it. It had a wooden seat originally, but my husband thought that was worth it. And wasn't anything broke about it or anything, except the seat was kind of crude, you know.
Bennett: You know the dolls look well in the chair, don't they?
Hayward: Oh yes. Now this is, oh, and the story of my very, you know I had a doll that was almost my height, and the story of how my brother, if you'll read the book, cut that doll in two.
Hayward: It was just horrible. You know I never saw that doll again because I just grieved something terrible, what my brother ever did with it, but he just had to buy, it was impossible to do anything with her, and so I had a larger doll and I think Mother was very careful, you know, to try to get me a very pretty doll, but he was a brother that was very realistic, you know. And oh I was going to tell you, he was used to these men getting drunk, and when we’ d play, you know, he'd be my husband and I would be the mother, you know, and he'd be coming home from work, but he would come home drunk and Mother would be so cross with him. "Your Father doesn't come home that way." "I know, but so and so's father did." He wanted to play Mr. Devenney 'cause he'd come home drunk. He said, "I want to play Mr. Devenney." But he normally did that, but then broke some of my dishes, you know, he'd turn the whole table over. Mother would hear it, you know, and coming running. She had a time with both of us, we were really different.
Now this doll has not it's original wig, that's the only thing about it, but she goes to sleep like the rest, and she has lost one of her teeth. And the little pins here were our son's little pins, some-body gave them to him as a baby.
Bennett: Oh, how nice.
Hayward: Yes. Now this is not her original dress, my mother-in-law made these extra dresses. Now I'll show you her original dress.
Bennett: That's dotted Swiss?
Hayward: Yes. This is her original dress, which sometimes I dress her in.
Bennett: Oh, look at that - and all the lace on it.
Hayward: I'm almost afraid to starch it, you know.
Bennett: Yes, oh yes.
Hayward: You see, it doesn't have the lace, but Mother Hayward did, you know, put the eyelet around. And my Mother did that, she did all that lace, put that lace in there, isn't that pretty?
Bennett: Oh, it's beautiful. And all the little tucks in there.
Hayward: Yes. Look at the sleeves, the lace on the sleeves. Now she has her original petticoat too, well that's her original dress. See, she just has, I think, the one. Yes, but you see the lace matches here, see her little panties.
Bennett: Look at the depth of the hem.
Hayward: There's just nothing stinted, you know. And she's a lovely little doll and of course she's, you know a doll like that, a bisque doll from Germany, she's from Germany too. So I used to love her too, she's such a sweet doll.
Bennett: Now what's her name?
Hayward: This one was named Helen, after a cousin, my sister's named after her. This was my Mother's - no my, Mother's niece that she was very fond of, and her name was Helen and so her - and she was named after the other aunt, Clara. I had two aunts and I was named after - my middle name is Louella, but Clara was named - had her name first, this other aunt, and she was called Clara Helen, you know. And so this little doll was, I played with a little girl named Lou Asa, so she's Lou Asa, I name her after her. Lou Asa McCrae. I'm sorry she doesn't have her wig, but she's pretty with a new one.
Bennett: Oh, she's, very pretty hair.
Hayward: I only have one dark - one doll, one dark doll over there. And she's Beatrice, really because my mother was a brunette, and I might as well show you, so I named her Beatrice for my sister because she looks a lot like Beatrice, see she's the one with the dark eyes.
Bennett: Oh yes.
Hayward: And she had the dark blue eyes like mine, only she had the kind of auburn hair, you know, because it wasn't really red, but was kind of an auburn, had an auburn light in it. So, she lost her wig, but she's got all her teeth. And she's got my son's old pin. Now this dress was made by my mother-in-law. She was a lovely little sewer, she never had my husband was an only child. This is her original petticoat too, and you see that has really a deep hem.
Bennett: Yes it does.
Hayward: And see, it matches her, the wider lace is like this lace. There's her little shoes, those are original shoes, I think I have new strings in it.
Bennett: She looks brand new.
Hayward: And here's her dress.
Bennett: Yes she does, doesn't she?
Hayward: Here's her original dress.
Bennett: Oh, that's pretty.
Hayward: See, it has the same...that Mother did. See the insertion here and here on the shoulder – imagine that. And the tucks in the skirt. Just think how this material has held out.
Bennett: It's the truth, that cotton really...
Hayward: I'm in my eighties.
Bennett: Well, cottons held up better than anything - don't they? Cottons and linen.
Hayward: Yes, yes. Then my baby doll is very sweet too.
Bennett: Did I hear - it said something?
Hayward: Yes, it did. She kind of squeaks at times, don't you, hon?
Bennett: Oh, I thought maybe it was, you know, that went like we were talking. Like mama, or something.
Hayward: No, she doesn't say that. I put the little bow in her hair.
Bennett: Looks nice there, I think, don't you?
- Toys and dolls; Baby clothes; Celluloid dollsSynopsis: Hayward continues to display and describe her doll collection. She shows off some of her son's baby clothes. Hayward talks about children clothes. She displays and describes her younger sister's first and only doll. She displays and describes dolls made of celluloid.Keywords: Celluloid; Dolls; Embroidery; ToysTranscript: Hayward: I wanted to show you this needlepoint seat, it belonged to my sister-in-law that died and I purchased it from her estate.
Bennett: That's beautiful.
Hayward: For my dolls, I really wanted it. She did that, her needlepoint.
Bennett: How nice.
Hayward: Isn't that sweet? And I thought it would just be nice for the dolls.
Bennett: Very feminine.
Hayward: My brother, older brother, never had any children. Now this one is Clara, because by that time I had a baby sister, so my Mother had to get me a baby doll. And she's Clara, and she has the light hair like my sister had and everything, and my Mother-in-law made her dress. I have her original dress which is right here. See, the same yoke is in there, very plain, that's her original dress. Seethe little lace on here. My Mother just...
Bennett: That is beautiful, that is pretty lace.
Hayward: My mother just had a way with lace.
Bennett: Is this the kind that you would put the ribbon through?
Hayward: Yes, I think...
Bennett: Is there ribbon run through this or not, maybe not?
Hayward: Well, I - maybe there might be a hole up there.
Bennett: Yes, I think there is.
Hayward: A little bit, but I guess this must have worn out in there didn't really notice that wasn't there. But that's her baby dress and then of course she has her original petticoat.
Bennett: Oh look, she has little booties. And then of course she has booties, she's a baby doll. Oh, the diapers.
Hayward: So I had to have a baby, you know, when my baby sister came.
Bennett: And it's three-quarter, the triangular diaper.
Hayward: Yeah, that's the way they put them on in those days.
Bennett: Oh, that's darling.
Hayward: She has such a cute little back too, just like a baby.
Bennett: Oh, she does, oh I like that hat, that is really sweet.
Hayward: And her hat, yes, and you see it has ribbons, this is the original bonnet, I
Bennett: Oh, is it?
Hayward: Yes, yes, and this lace on the back of it. The lace is around the back and not around the face.
Bennett: Yes, isn't that something.
Hayward: This is the original ribbon, there's ribbon in this too, in the insertion .And look at the tiny tucks in there. So Mother must have had an awful lot of patience.
Bennett: Yes, I think so, she must have enjoyed it.
Hayward: She did, she enjoyed it so much. Now this was not any of the dolls', but it was a little dress my son had, but I just kept it because I could put it on any of the dolls, that was his little dress. You know, when he was born they used to dress the – for a little while they looked like...
Bennett: A baby was a baby, yes that's right.
Hayward: Now these are original, they're stockings, extra stockings, and there's even a little belly band, she has a belly band.
Bennett: My dolls had a belly band, yes.
Hayward: Isn't that something! And see my Mother even has feather stitching on it.
Bennett: Oh my gosh.
Hayward: The band goes around the baby, I think twice or some-thing. And this was her extra diaper and these are stockings. See, they're getting kind of old, you can tell that. Here's another kind of, well not exactly a lace, but it has a pretty little design on it.
Bennett: Yes, definitely a dress sock.
Hayward: And these were dark stockings, you know. In those days the children wore dark stockings, you notice in my nine-year-old picture?
Bennett: What color stockings did they wear - mostly black?
Hayward: Mostly black, yes.
Bennett: Some brown?
Hayward: I just remember having the black stockings in the winter. And then if we had sandals - well then I had white stockings, we didn't have socks for a longtime, they were just, yes.
Bennett: That would be for dress-up you mean?
Hayward: Yes, so that's four of the dolls. Now we'll have to see these others. Now someone in the church, I wanted to mention - this is a very old doll and is known as a pin doll. Years ago you see all her hair is gone, the woman, it was her grandmother's, and if you lift this, it was kept by the sewing machine and if you needed a pin or something, so this woman explained, and she gave it to me for my collection. I've never seen one. So I keep her in this little basket and she has a little embroidery pillow.
Bennett: Now do you know her limbs are movable?
Hayward: Are they?
Bennett: Yes, they are.
Bennett: I'll pass it on.
Hayward: Now I have some of the penny dolls, we called them penny dolls because we could get them for a penny. Penny dolls we called them, I'll show you, I've got about six of them, celluloid. But that's the only china one I've got.
Bennett: Sweet. I've never seen one of these.
Hayward: No, I never did either, and this is the way it was dressed, yes, just like that.
Bennett: Have you seen one, Dorothy?
Hayward: Now I don't think her feet move.
Bennett: Yes they do.
Hayward: Oh do they?
Bennett: Oh now, they do at the leg, the legs move, but not the. yeah, I thought you meant just the foot, but the legs move, yeah.
Hayward: Those little legs, you discovered something I didn't. So I guess she, in a way, is a little valuable, I don't know. I've never seen another one like it.
Bennett: Maybe it was from the area, a particular area they...
Hayward: Yes, that could be. Now the other dolls that I got at C.I.D. House, this was my sister's only doll, she got it that one Christmas, Beatrice's. And you see her face is celluloid.
Johnson: Isn't that sweet for a first doll.
Bennett: Isn't that dear! Stuffing is like straw. She's got a banged-up nose.
Hayward: Yes, I guess she has.
Bennett: Reminds you kind of a monkey or teddy bear.
Johnson: It almost does through the body.
Bennett: The bunny fur.
Hayward: Now this one, I think is very old, and I think this is the one that probably looks like was in that coach, that early coach, you know.
Bennett: Uh-huh, the one...
Hayward: Her dress was lost, I think, Mother Hayward made me this dress and see, she tried to make it exactly like my Mother would make them, you know, but she has her original petticoat, her original petticoat and her original panties.
Bennett: Oh yes, and she's all jointed too.
Hayward: She's jointed too, yes. She's a much I think she looks so much like, see she has this celluloid face, and they don't have those now I don't think, you know, the dolls with the celluloid face. And she looks like that doll in the coach, you know. Oh, she's unfastened here, sorry, dear. Well, anyway, that's just her little bow, she had to have a bow.
Bennett: Pretty color hair.
Hayward: Yes, isn’ t that pretty? Well, that’ s a wig, 'cause she had no wig.
Bennett: Oh, I like this one coming up.
Hayward: Now this one is a rather famous doll, because she's a laughing doll - no, no, she's not the laughing doll, no, here’ s the famous one. Ah, she's another little doll that I had.
Bennett: She has a pretty face.
Hayward: Aren't they darling!
Bennett: And I got her, you know, I'd get these little dolls at Christmas too.
Hayward: But this is the bisque.
Bennett: Oh yes, it has the bisque face.
Hayward: Don't you love the cheeks?
Bennett: Oh yes, the coloring is beautiful.
Hayward: Yes, just beautiful. Now this is not her original, she had to have a wig, and a lady in our church gave me that, she crocheted that little bonnet for her, but this is her original dress, you see, 'cause the lace matches. And see she has little socks too. And she's more or less a little grown up. Now I have her history, did you know Mrs. [Kouster?] the doll lady on Shipley Street? She's the one put the - got the, you know, well these, for me. Of course she's laughing and you can see her smiling.
Bennett: Oh yes. I don't think I've ever seen a smiling doll. She does look happy, doesn't she?
Hayward: Now once a year I do do their clothes if I have the -I do it when I can...
Bennett: Isn't she cute? Oh, and you can see two bottom teeth.
Hayward: Where's the card? Mrs. Kouster did research on her when she did the wig, and she's called the Laughing Baby, and she was put out by the Gebrufer Henbauch (Sp)Company of Germany, she's a German doll period, early twentieth century, so see that would make her about, I was given maybe when I was five or six years old. Well some years ago she was worth a hundred dollars and this celluloid doll is - here's the celluloid doll - she has a turtle mark on her and she's 1889 and she represents long life and durability and at that time - now this has been about ten years ago that she appraised these - that was fifty dollars, and see she signed her name, The Kouster Doll Hospital, but she put the wig on that.
Bennett: I never thought of that as being celluloid, celluloid to me is that kind that you could push - it was soft, you know what I mean, like those...
Hayward: Like those that have arms that move around.
Bennett: Yes, that's what I thought of as celluloid.
Hayward: That's what I understood, now maybe, that's interesting because maybe it is a combination.
Bennett: When you said, the nickel and dime dolls - do you remember those? No, you're too young, they were in the five and ten for like a nickel.
Hayward: Now here they are, here's four of them. Now are they celluloid?
Bennett: Well, yes, I think so, but the ones I'm thinking of were maybe cheaper, because they were thinner, softer.
Hayward: Celluloid is very thin and that doll...
Bennett: Do you think that, aren't they dear though? Oh, look at...
Johnson: This one is like it, it has the same kind of hat, it's funny, they took the arms off and I carefully put them back on and now my grandchildren came and took the arms off, just the way the boys did, it must be hereditary to take the arms off.
Bennett: Here is something I have never seen, look at the hair on that one.
Johnson: Isn't that cute. I can remember dolls that we strung with elastic too, they were very inexpensive.
Bennett: They were the celluloid kind.
- Dolls and valuation; Having a doll custom made; Story about her granddaughter playing with the dollsSynopsis: Hayward continues to discuss dolls. She talks about valuation and appraisal of dolls. She describes how her mother made her stay at home rather than go out and play with her brothers. She discusses doll clothes. She talks about a doll she had made that used locks of her brother's hair for its wig. She talks about how her great-granddaughter likes playing with the dolls.Keywords: Appraisal; Dolls; Play; ValuationTranscript: Hayward: I have several books on dolls too, you know.
Bennett: Oh, they're beautiful - look at this one. Do you know how much you think these were?
Hayward: I don't know, they...
Bennett: What did you call them?
Hayward: Penny dolls, the lady that gave it to me, was in our last church, and she called them penny dolls. She said it just cost one penny at the time when she got them.
Bennett: Oh, they're dear. This is made in Italy.
Johnson: Yeah, well there are two more here that have the same thing on them.
Bennett: Made in Italy, uh-huh, right across the diaper area.
Hayward: Oh yes.
Bennett: Which probably makes them worth a lot more to have that label still on there.
Johnson: Don't you love the hair, see one has lost it's hat.
Hayward: Don't they have cute faces?
Bennett: Yes they do, they do. Now these are cuter. This isn't exactly what I was thinking, I've never seen -look at the feet on them.
Hayward: And their hands are so perfect.
Bennett: Yes, yes. They're in a mold, you can see from the sides.
Hayward: This is the little box she gave them to me in, you know, she brought them one time to the service.
Bennett: Oh, they're nice.
Hayward: And I think those little dolls, you know, you can experiment, you know, sewing for them. Now I had some like them when I was a child, but I just don't know what happened to those. It's a shame, you just don't know what happened to your things, you know.
Bennett: This is true, gets me thinking about what...
Johnson: Well, I think you're fortunate to have a lot of it saved this much for you.
Hayward: Yes, yes, now I've got, counting that, there's four there, and five, six, seven, eight, I’ ve got eight old dolls.
Bennett: And the clothing yet.
Hayward: Yes, the dresses. Oh, and this was the nightgown to this doll when I put her to bed. That's her original nightgown.
Bennett: Oh, imagine.
Hayward: Lace on that too, lace at the neck.
Bennett: What's the back, did it tie or button?
Hayward: It buttoned, yes...
Bennett: Oh, look at that, even with a little row...
Hayward: Rows on it.
Bennett: Oh, look at that - look at the embroidery on -
Johnson: Oh, that's lovely.
Hayward: And I used to undress my dolls to go to bed, you know. As I said, you know, I was with my Mother most of the time, I had these two brothers and they would make water wheels and I would long to go to the woods, no sir, I wasn't allowed to go with them ever, never saw them swim in that creek, you know. No, you're a little girl, you stay home with me - that's the way it was. Now, this is her bonnet too, she had a bonnet. If I wanted to, this was supposed to be summer, this was her summer bonnet.
Bennett: She had a summer bonnet? Oh, that's pretty too. That would fit a baby – look at the embroidery on that.
Hayward: But look at the insertion there, and the way it fits in, and my Mother made that. And even the little lace around this part of it, you know, 'course put the wide lace on that.
Bennett: I'll bet you were so thrilled when you found these.
Hayward: Yes, I really was. Oh, I forgot to get her, she has a blue dress, a summer dress, now she may have had a summer dress that my Mother made, but I couldn't find it - I mean when I found her. When my mother passed away, and we were going through the house, these dolls were in the chest, all laid out, and with their clothes, where my Mother had put them, laid them aside, all except that one. And when I opened the chest, my husband standing there – he said, "What is this?" See these dolls were all there laid out, and their clothes all ironed and everything, she had laid them away, you know.
Hayward: He said, "Well, I never saw anything as nostalgic as this in my life, now what are you going to do with these?" I knew they were mine, I said “ Well I can't be parted from them now, ever, ever." Now my brother, you know, at that time - boys, they let their hair grow, and this was my older brother with his hair, his long curls.
Bennett: Look at that. Oh, look - and the bow even in his hair.
Hayward: Even the bow, yes.
Bennett: You wouldn't know that's not a girl, I would be sure it would be a girl.
Hayward: Now, when my Mother passed away I found these curls in a box, and I asked his wife if she really wanted them and she said, "No, Ethel, you take them." And I asked my brother, and he say, "Oh gosh, I don't want that - is that my hair?" He had no more interest in it, and I said, "Yes", and his wife said, "Oh, you take it, you'll do something with it someday." Well, he died in June, he's been dead a little over a year, he died in June of '85, and that spring I had the curls in a little chest I've got in there, I took them out and thought - what will I do with them? And my first thought was maybe to bury that hair with him, you know, because my Mother had cut it off and it was tied in the sweetest satin blue ribbons that she had tied these curls with, each curl. I thought, well that's silly, I'm not going to do that. So my husband said, "Well, you love dolls, why don't you take it down to Mrs. Kouster and she hadn't yet retired, I just got her in the nick of time, she was thinking about it. Took the hair down, and she said, "Well, now I'll have to get you an antique doll that would go with this, the curls will be slightly darker, you know, when they really treat it and make a wig for a doll." But she had done that, she knew the people in New York where she sent the wig to, so she did and then Mrs. Kouster got the antique doll for me, made all the clothes and it was perfectly beautiful. Of course it was quite an expensive doll, now here she is, she's under glass here.
Bennett: She's the one, oh.
Hayward: And the curls you see in the picture are here.
Bennett: Wasn't that a lovely idea. Oh, look at the dress - oh, Mrs. Hayward...
Hayward: Yes, now she, this dress was made by Mrs. Kouster.
Hayward: And look at this, and even the smocking on the sleeves.
Bennett: Oh, she's beautiful.
Hayward: She did all of that, she dressed the doll entirely.
Bennett: Oh, she's beautiful.
Hayward: Everything's matched.
Bennett: Look at the little shoes, and her teeth, she'd smiling. Yes she is - isn't she adorable, she's got a real pretty face, very pleasant.
Hayward: Now she didn't put the wig on until I saw this baby, and I didn't know how, she wanted me - how she wanted me to have her dressed - she said, "Now do you want her in blue, or do you want her in pink?” And I said, "Well, she's got blue eyes, suppose we dress her in blue. She said, "Well then, I'll dress her." And she said - I still didn't know the price of it, now this was including the wig - what do you think she would be worth?
Bennett: I wouldn't have any idea in this world because she charged you for the...
Hayward: This was including the wig, it was the whole thing. I don't even know what the price...
Bennett: The wig and the dress.
Hayward: And the dress, and of course she did all the work on the dress, and the doll, which is a replica of course, it's a replica of an antique doll of that period she said, but I thought the one she chose was absolutely beautiful.
Bennett: Oh it's beautiful.
Hayward: I just love her, she just seems like she talks to you, you know.
Bennett: Yes, she's got that smile on her face, just a little...
Hayward: Yes, just like, take me, can I go with you or something.
Bennett: Here I am.
Hayward: Now Mrs. Kouster said her curls might have to be done over some day, they might come out, but I don't know -she gave me the name of another lady that has a doll hospital, I haven't as yet done it, but this, I've had her since she's 85, well, she cost $225.
Bennett: I was going to say a thousand.
Hayward: I thought it was really very moderate.
Bennett: Oh yes, very.
Hayward: For what she did on that doll, you know - $225 is all I paid for it. Of course as time goes on, and then of course it was more, because I went to Your Home and took the doll, I wanted to have her under cover, you know, I didn't want her to get dusty or anything, and they chose that and I forget how much that was, thirty or forty dollars for that...
Bennett: I think that's a good investment. Yes it was, that's a nice idea.
Hayward: Yes it was, so I would say now if she was sold, maybe around $300 or so.
Bennett: Oh at least.
Hayward: But I hate to part with her.
Bennett: No, I wouldn't.
Johnson: No, I wouldn't either.
Hayward: She's just a little sweetheart, isn't she?
Bennett: Oh, that hair is gorgeous.
Hayward: Now, my husband named her. He said, "What are you gonna name that doll?" See, my brother's name was Wilmer, and he said, "Well, why not call her Wilma Victoria?" That's after my Mother.
Bennett: Oh, how nice, very good.
Hayward: She's Wilma Victoria after her great uncle, I guess it would be.
Bennett: Oh, don't you love that little expression?
Hayward: Yes, I come in here and talk to her sometimes at night, you know, she's just so sweet.
Bennett: Just beautiful.
Hayward: So she's very happy here, I hope. Now my grandchildren - all of these.
Bennett: I'll bet they love to come here.
Hayward: Oh, they do, it's just like a fairyland - this Rachel, you know, she's very feminine, well when she was home, going home, you know, they stopped in Washington and I felt sorry for my daughter-in-law, and of course she thought she was coming back here, and they were here about a week and when we'd be out some place she'd, you know, they'd bring her in and she'd say, "Come in, we're home, we're home." And she called this home because she had all these dolls and I'd let her play with them and everything, and her mother and Nancy, that's my daughter-in-law, would have a fit. "Oh, Grandma, she's gonna break these things. I said, "No she won't." I've got to get her adjusted - there she is, there she is. Anyway...
Bennett: She does look happy, she really does.
Hayward: So anyway I said, well anyway - of course when they left Washington, they wanted to see the memorial there with, you know...
Hayward: Her husband and Karen and my grandson was there, they wanted to see their father's name on that monument and they went to see it and then of course halfway down, why they got a motel and everything, made a one-night stop. Well, Rachel, I guess, thought she was coming here, they were coming back. Well when she got to Nancy's, they called me up that night, you know, when they got home. But she threw a regular fit, and she said, "I don't want to be here." Nancy said, "Well, you're at Grandma's." "I don't want to be here, I want to go home to my other Grandma's." I was her great-grandmother. She says, "Why aren't we home up there, I want to live up there." Well, she got down and she kicked and really went into a real tantrum, and I felt sorry for Nancy and I said, "Well, it's my fault, I shouldn't have all those dolls." Not only that, I have Teddy bears, these people that come next door to me with Teddy bears. Well, anyway, she - oh Nancy says, "Oh, Mother I just don't know why she..." Well her father just picked her up and said, "We're going home." Well she just kicked and screamed and then of course on the way home she fell asleep, she was just exhausted. Poor little thing, she thought she was coming back here.
Bennett: Home - home was here.
Hayward: Why can't I go back to my other Grandma's she was just going on and having a fit. Well, this doll, if you notice she has a very special place here...
Bennett: Yes, she does.
Hayward: Now, she's a very pretty little doll, isn't she? She has a history. When we were building this home, we're the only family lived in it, it was started in October because my husband told the workmen that it would have to be done by June when we retired, because when you retire, you've got to have a place to go, you know what I mean. And they promised to have it done, and they did have it done, but they started it in October and it's very well built because he had an uncle who was a contractor and builder, and he went over it inch by inch and he said it was really good, because they took their time, see, October to June to build this home. And I think that's why we have such a beautiful fireplace because they selected the stones that matched the, you know, the stone on the outside. And the paneling and everything is very pretty down in my husband's study – well anyway - oh, and my niece, my sister's younger daughter was married in January that year, she graduated in June from college, and she selected January to get married. Well, I had a cold before I came, and doctor really, I went kinda without his consent, but anyway he did give me a needle and he gave me medicine, said you really shouldn't go, but I know how you feel. I said, "Well, it's my niece, I must go if I can make it. Well I really didn't feel too well, but anyway I kinda got better as time wore on and I went to the wedding and everything. And my son came up, he was in the Pentagon, we got to see him and all at the wedding. Well anyway, the next day I was staying with my brother and his wife, you know, over near Talley-Ho and Curtis said well I think I had better ride around and see how the house looks. I said, "Oh, let me go with you." And my sister-in-law, her name was Matilda, but we called her Mickey, and Mickey said, "Oh Ethel, you can't go out, it's just too cold." I said, "Well I promise I'll stay in the car if you let me go. So I came -well, while they were going through the house and looking, I did stay in the car, I didn't get out because it was pretty bleak, you know, and this street wasn't even paved, it was just nothing but mud, and mud all around the house and everything. I think there was one pavement in or something - boards they walked on. Well I was looking around and right up from the car was this doll and she was lying in the gutter, and she had an old faded dress on her, and she was just lying there, you could see her legs move, but she was just kinda lying there like that. And I looked out the window and I thought, oh, what an adorable doll even if she does have a poor little dress on, how awful. Well I think somebody going through here, the child had the doll and just dropped it, out the window, is what I think really happened. And she had no cap on and her little hair and everything was all, looked like matted. Well, when my...