Interview with Mary Braden Jackson, 1986 June 8 [audio](part 2)

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  • Walking on Sunday afternoons and relatives coming for dinner; her father belonging to the Orangemen's Club; her mother's quilting parties; using lanterns at night; neighborhood children playing in the boats kept on the Brandywine
    Keywords: Bars (Drinking establishments); Boats and boating; Brandywine Springs Park; Children--Social life and customs; Covered bridges; Lanterns; Men--Societies and clubs; Orange Order; Rising Sun Lane covered bridge; Sunday dinners; Working class families--Social life and customs; Working class women--Social life and customs
    Transcript: Johnson: Listen, I forgot to tell you too, that my Father had other grandsons and a niece, our granddaughter I wanted to speak of.

    Bennett: I'll put them on the end.

    Johnson: All right, all right, don't forget them.

    Bennett: Okay, we'll get them somewhere along the line. Let's — we were, on Sunday afternoons.

    Johnson: On Sunday afternoon, well, we were only allowed to take walks. And we used to walk up to Greenville and all up through Centerville and one day we hit the railroad there at Greenville, so we wanted to see where that railroad went to, so four or five of us girls, maybe six, walked down that railroad, and you know where we come out? Brandywine Springs, and that was a way - do you know where Brandywine Springs was?

    Bennett: Yes, I don't know exactly...

    Johnson: Well, when we come out, we were in Brandywine Springs, now that was a good distance. So, we had no money to ride back, so we had to - we walked all the way back to Squirrel Run again. In those days we used our legs for walking, there was no automobiles and no carriages that we could have — du Ponts had carriages.

    Bennett: Yeah — now did your parents have relatives come to visit on Sunday?

    Johnson: Yes, and they'd bring all the kids with them. And when we were cooking, getting the vegetables ready and all, Mother would say, "Now fix them all, pare more potatoes, more turnips because your Aunt and Uncle might be out with their seven children." But they didn't have to be invited, see, we knew that they'd be coming out. So sure enough, when the dinner would be ready to put on the table, Uncle James and Aunt Roseanne and six or seven of the kids would come out. Well, the kids then, the children then waited until after the other older people got fed. But Mother always had plenty, there was plenty of mashed potatoes, plenty of turnips, string beans, she'd slice down tomatoes and Father used to raise a little bit of lettuce and we used that lettuce and coffee and tea, whatever they wanted, but there was plenty for all. You didn't have to be invited years ago, just come. And Mother says, "You know we might have company, we'll cook a little extra." And all the neighbors said that.

    Bennett: It was the way that they lived.

    Johnson: They lived. If company come, they were welcome and there's food there for them, what we had.

    [Unidentified woman]: Didn't you have chickens?

    Johnson: Oh yeah, we had chickens — stewed chicken. Mother used to stew chicken and make chicken dumplings, and she'd make a large pot full of them. Anything that would stick to you and fill you. And she always made gravy for everything and she used to fry sausage, balls of sausage in the morning, and she'd made a cream gravy over them, and that's the best thing we ever eat, but I never heard tell of anybody ever making that anymore.

    Bennett: No, I've never...

    Johnson: It was cream gravy over sausages. And fresh bread, and her bread was delicious. Oh, they all made good bread in those days.

    Bennett: Yes, I think so. How about your Father, did he belong to any clubs or organizations?

    Johnson: Yes.

    Bennett: What did he belong to?

    Johnson: He belonged to — called the Orangemen's Club. That was a club that was — a lodge it was.

    Bennett: A lodge?

    Johnson: It was organized in Ireland and it was strictly a Protestant organization — no Catholic could join it.

    Bennett: Okay, where did they hold their meetings, do you know?

    Johnson: Yes, at Sixth and Shipley, it was called the Old Redman's Hall, they had a room in there when the lodge met.

    Bennett: How often did he go?

    Johnson: To his lodge?

    Bennett: How often did he go?

    Johnson: Once a week.

    Bennett: Once a week.

    Johnson: Sometimes he skipped a week. It was once a week.

    Bennett: Yes, that was when — now your Mother, you did mention that she did quilting, did she belong to any clubs?

    Johnson: No, Mother hadn't any time.

    Bennett: She didn't go to any church...

    Johnson: Oh, she went to church, Christ Church. When Christ Church had any affairs going on, Mother and Father used to go. Like when they gave dinners or strawberry festivals.

    Bennett: But would she help, would she be on the committee perhaps?

    Johnson: Yeah, once in a while. Sometimes she would give some of her bread, couple of loaves of bread toward it.

    Bennett: Okay, now the ladies, you said they had the...

    Johnson: Quilting parties?

    Bennett: Yes, would you describe that, sort of how they...

    Johnson: Well, there'd be maybe six or eight, maybe ten at the most would come to do the quilting. And Mother kept her quilting things up in the back attic and they'd all go up there and they'd quilt as long as they wanted to quilt, and then Mother would slip down and make a big pot of tea, sometimes she had hot biscuits or she'd bring out homemade bread, rolls and butter, and then she had a lot of jelly, she put up jelly, and they had a little treat before they went home.

    Bennett: And then after they finished her quilt, they would all go to the next...

    Johnson: They wouldn't finish the quilt.

    Bennett: No, no, I know, but when one was finished then they would, the next lady would be the hostess?

    Johnson: Then they would go to another, they would go down to Mrs. Beacom's, or they'd go into Liza Miller's or they'd go into Mrs. McKluckus and quilt. They went all around the Village, anybody that had quilting to do, the neighbors all helped out.

    Bennett: Was this done during the day?

    Johnson: No, at night.

    Bennett: At night. By the oil lamps?

    Johnson: Yes, oil lamps, but the women that come, if they would come from any distance, they carried lanterns to show them the way. We had to use lanterns, my Father used to carry a lantern over to his yard at night when he went out at twelve o'clock, he carried a lantern. It had to be filled with oil and kept ready for him, too.

    Bennett: Right, yes, that must have been a pretty sight, seeing all these lanterns going through the...

    Johnson: Yes, all of the men carried lanterns when it was dark at night. ‘ Course when they were in the saloon, Tom Toy's Saloon, they didn't bother with any lantern, they found their way home someway, somehow, at any hour. [Laughter]

    Bennett: The Good Lord got them home.

    Johnson: The Good Lord guided them. And do you know, years and years ago there was no stone wall up at that creek there, no stone wall. And us children used to go down there and play, and I often wondered why a drunk didn't stagger into that creek, but no one ever did, they got home. Us children played down there before the stone wall went up. And the men across on Walker's Banks used to come over in wooden boats with two paddles, and if it was summertime, you know, they wouldn't hardly get up in the Yard 'til all the children in the Village, like in the Long Row it was, we'd run down, we'd get in them - they used to put a chain around a tree — we'd take that chain off, we'd get into them boats, and the bigger ones would take the paddles, we'd go across that creek, come back again, go up the creek, go down again, nobody ever fell out and got drowned. Then we brought the boats back and put the chain around the tree again, but we had a good time in the boats.

    Bennett: Oh, yes you did. The bridge wasn't there yet?

    Johnson: What bridge?

    Bennett: The bridge...

    Johnson: The covered bridge?

    Bennett: The covered bridge.

    Johnson: The covered bridge was way down low, that came — that started at Rising Sun and went over past the Experimental Station. We were higher up, we were up more toward the Powder Yard, the creek.

    Bennett: Okay, then I guess the new bridge that's there now...

    [Unidentified woman]: Tyler McConnell Bridge.

    Bennett: No, I don't mean that. I mean the little one down at the bottom, it's...

    Johnson: It's not a covered bridge any more.

    Bennett: No, It's in a different place, the one now?

    Johnson: No, it's in the same place, but the reason they had the covered bridge was when it stormed or rained hard, all the merchants, like the meat man and the grocery, milkman, anybody who was out in a carriage or anything, could go on that covered bridge and they were protected from the storm, that's why they had a covered bridge.

    Bennett: And it wouldn't be icy or snowy, I guess.

    Johnson: No, no.

    Bennett: Okay, see there's a reason for everything, all you have to do is know what it is, right?
  • Louise du Pont Crowninshield hosting dinners and "willing workers" gatherings for the Sunday School girls; impressions of Mrs. Crowninshield and some girls visiting her in Massachusetts; Frank du Pont giving her father his first powder yard job; getting to blow the whistle in the boiler house where her father worked
    Keywords: Boiler House; Charities; Children--Family relationships; Children--Hospitals; Crowninshield, Louise du Pont, 1877-1958; Du Pont, Alfred I. (Alfred Iré né e), 1864-1935; Du Pont, Francis Gurney, 1850-1904; Du Pont, Henry Francis, 1880-1969; Fathers and daughters; Girls--Conduct of life; Ice cream, ices, etc.; missionaries; Pekingese dog; Respect; Sunday schools; Winterthur (Winterthur, Del. : Estate); Winterthur dairy; Working class families
    Transcript: Bennett: How about you, did you and your sisters have any clubs that you belonged to?

    Johnson: No, if there was anything going on down Breck's Lane, entertainment or anything up at church, we went there but we didn't belong to any lodges or any...

    Bennett: No, but not any clubs. How about Mrs. Crowinshield's, you did belong to it?

    Johnson: Oh, at the Sunday School, if you got thirty, thirty— five, she invited us once a year up there and she had a dinner for us. And she would take us all through the place and we were up there one time when they were putting up the ruins of Pompeii, and she explained it all to us, and we listened to it. And then she had all these statues and things like that, she explained all them to us. Oh, we went up there every year in May - in May. And then we always had dinner - sometimes it was a roast, turkeys, sometimes it was roast beef, always, and plenty of it. And Harry du Pont, her brother, Henry, whichever you want to call him, he used to make the ice cream for us up at Winterthur where he lived, and that - from his own cows - and that was the best ice cream you ever tasted. And he'd send down a couple of cans. In later years she used to get it from Hanna's, but they're out of business. We got all the ice cream we could eat. Sometimes she had all kinds of foods for us, and other times - at one time I remember, she had spaghetti and meatballs and we eat that up in her own private dining room.

    Bennett: Oh, the regular, the big dining room?

    Johnson: In the big dining room upstairs, we eat up there. And she was lovely, she just — she told us girls one time — somebody was talking about somebody they didn't like to associate with or something, and she says, "Girls, let me tell you something I want you to remember, all of you. I always feel that you can go up to the highest and feel comfortable talking to them" She says, "But always remember that you can come down to the lowest and still feel comfortable." She says, "Don't forget that."

    Bennett: That's what I always try to teach my children in so many words.

    Johnson: She told us girls. Used to have us singing up there. My sister, Isabelle, was a wonderful singer and she used to have Isabelle sing, and she always wanted a hymn. And one of the hymns was Rock of Ages. Oh, she was lovely to us girls, we loved her.

    Bennett: Were you one of her willing workers?

    Johnson: Willing workers.

    Bennett: You were one of her willing workers? Would you tell me about that, please?

    Johnson: Well, she had the Sunday School class, and sometimes on Saturday afternoon, she would have sewing classes for us. We'd all come up and sew, she sent it to the missionaries in the foreign countries. And God knows I don't know what the sewing looked like, 'cause I was sewing there, too, and I can't sew a stitch. But we used to hem diapers and hem handkerchiefs and hem different things. She said, of course, a lot of times she had to take them all home and wash them because, before she could bring them back to be finished, and I believe her. And then she would have a treat for us — sometimes ice cream and cookies or pretzels, and sometimes she would have milk for us and a piece of cake. We always got something. We knew if we sewed long enough, we'd get something to eat at the end of it.

    Bennett: You really went to eat rather than to sew?

    Johnson: Yes, sure we did, sure we did, but she was wonderful.

    Bennett: Everything was done for missionary work, so to speak?

    Johnson: Yes, oh yes, we didn't sew for her or none of the du Ponts [laughter].

    Bennett: I thought she was teaching the girls how to sew and embroider, that's what I thought it was.

    Johnson: No, no, this was diapers and things for foreign countries - like India and different places. And then once a year, twice, I don't know how often, after she got them washed and the dirt out of them, why she packed them up and sent them.

    Bennett: How long were you a member of her club?

    Johnson: I guess I was a member of her club from maybe ten to about sixteen, maybe, about like that - five years or something like that. 'Til — well, in later years we moved from Squirrel Run.

    Bennett: How many girls were members, do you recall?

    Johnson: About thirty or thirty-five. And she'd have all those girls up there once a year, and she'd call the roll, we'd all be there. We knew we were gonna get a good meal up there.

    Bennett: You told me something about her dog that looked like a mop.

    Johnson: Yes, she had two little Pekingese and they were real low to the floor. And she also had brown, rough ragged rugs like, along her bed — she didn't have Orientals when we went up there. These new people put Orientals rugs down, she never had Oriental rugs. She'd have these brown, plain rugs to the side of the bed and part of the floor was bare. And you had to watch whether you were on one of the rugs or on one of the Pekingese, they looked alike [laughter]. They looked alike, and we used to say, "Watch the dogs, watch the dogs." And she'd say, "Yes girls, please, now no one hurt the dogs, don't step on them." I thought, if ever I'd step one them, I was pretty heavy, I thought that Pekingese will never bark again. But we got through and she showed us a glass case one time as wide as that back wall, a glass case, and all the du Ponts years ago, their wedding dresses was in that glass case, and she would tell us who's each one was, and hers was in there.

    Bennett: Oh, and that was in the home?

    Johnson: In Crowninshield's home, she showed us girls. And there were dresses years ago that the du Ponts had been married in.

    Bennett: I'd like to see that myself.

    Johnson: I don't know where it ever got to, but it was in her home, she showed it to us. Wedding gowns that belonged to du Ponts. And then she had her picture there and I saw her picture and one time I went in to do something for Mrs. [William?] du Pont and I saw her picture up there. And Mrs. Thorton was the house governess there and she said to me - no, I told Mrs. Crowninshield later, I said, "I saw your picture the day you were married." And she was really heavy, and Frank was a tall, stately man, Frank Crowninshield, good looking man, but she was — she must have weighed two hundred and something when she was married. And I told her I saw the picture, it's a beautiful gown on her, and she said, "Mary, why didn't you ask Mrs. Thorton to give you that picture?" She said, "Miss Lena wouldn't have cared." And she said, "She'd have been willing to give it." But I didn't ask for it.

    Bennett: I saw a picture of her when she was maybe fourteen or fifteen and she was a big girl then. She was a big-boned...

    Johnson: Yeah, and she was tall.

    Bennett: Yes, I think so.

    Johnson: But, oh, she must have weighed 250 when she was married. But he was a tall, stately man, very handsome man. He was a captain, on a ship or something.

    Bennett: In Boston, I believe.

    Johnson: Yeah, and then she had - she never had any children, but she used to say to us girls, "I have three hundred babies up in Massachusetts." She had a babies' hospital or home up there, I think it was a hospital, and there was 300 babies kept up there and she had a place up there where she lived, but she also had a cottage up there and us girls, any of us were welcome to go up there and spend as many weeks as we wanted to. Now Bess Beacom and Bella McGarvey went up there one summer for a couple of weeks and she must have had a place on her ground where there was vegetables and things, and she used to send the vegetables and things over to Bess Beacom and Bella Garvey, and fix a chicken - no, pluck it and all of that — she didn't do it, but somebody did, and then she'd send over chicken. So anybody that could come — I never got a chance to go up there, but a lot of the girls did go up there and stayed a week or two in that cottage. It was open to any of the girls that went to Christ Church. Oh, she was just a doll, she was a Christian woman.

    Bennett: There were a lot of them were very, very nice people, they really were.

    Johnson: The older people were very nice. When my Father went out to look for a job in 1885 or '86, he went out and went to old Frank du Pont. And Frank du Pont lived right up the road from Christ Church and my Father went up and asked would he give him a job in the Powder Mill. Because my Father was thinking about getting a house with it. Frank du Pont looked at him and he says, "Well, the Powder Yard needs good, strong Irishmen like you." He said, "Yes, you can have a job." He said, "Thirty— six or thirty— eight dollars a month," and he said, "and you get a house with it, but you pay rent for the house, and the house is four dollars." That was at Squirrel Run. And then we moved up there. So my Father went out and for a while he was a laborer, and then Alfred du Pont came around one day and he sized him up and he says, "You're a pretty strong, robust looking man." He says, "I think I have a better job for you." My Father said, "I'm willing to do anything that's to be done, Mr. du Pont." "Well," he said, "I'm putting you in the Boiler House." He said, "There's three boilers and a stationary engine in there." And he says, "You look to me like you can shovel coal and you can pull out ashes." And my Father went up there. One man did this, and then he was relieved at six o'clock or whatever time - Johnny Buchanan used to relieve him. And my Father worked - but if there was no relief coming, my Father worked on til twelve o'clock, if there was no relief then, he worked until morning.

    Bennett: 'Cause it had to stay...

    Johnson: It had to be taken care of. And the dynamos building was right below the boiler house, down on the road side, and Albert Buchanan and Walter Matthewson run that. And I was in there many times. And when I used to go up to see my father, he used to have to oil this engine, some parts or something, he always had a little oil can for me, and every hole I saw in the wall or in the floor, I gave it oil. [Laughter] I followed him around, I gave everything oil. Everything was well oiled when I left the boiler house. Then he let me pull the cords down that blew the whistle — it was a real, loud whistle, and it variated — it would go slow and then it would go loud, then louder, then it would come down real low, then it stopped.

    Bennett: Now, was this at the end of the day — the work day whistle?

    Johnson: No, twelve o'clock he had to blow that whistle, and he had to blow that whistle at six o'clock at night.

    Bennett: Okay, at lunchtime and at — okay.

    Johnson: He didn't blow it in the morning. Then the Tin Shop had a bell that used to ring. And Mother used to say when we'd go sledding on Barley Mill Lane, she'd say, "When you hear the Tin Shop bell ringing, get for home." We listened to it, soon as that bell rang, we'd down off that hill, run up Squirrel Run, got in by eight o'clock. And if we weren't there by eight, she'd be coming out with a gray shawl all around her, coming up - "I was just coming after you." And it wouldn't have been too good for you, if you hadn't have found it, but we made it home. You minded your parents years ago, and you - when my Father called us, we had to say, "Sir", we said, "Sir", and when Mother called us, we'd say, "Yes, Ma'am". We never said, "No, what do you want?" "What is it?" No, you didn't talk that way to your parents, you respected them.

    Bennett: M-hum, yes.

    Johnson: I'm glad we did, I'm glad I was raised the way I was raised.
  • Serving on the welcoming committee at the nursing home and going to church every Monday; final thoughts and remarking on interview topics for a later date
    Keywords: Nursing homes; Older people--Care; Wagoner's Row; Women clergy
    Transcript: Bennett: It's a different world today.

    Johnson: Oh, yes, I'm glad I'm ready to leave it.

    Bennett: No, don't say that - stay around a while.

    Johnson: Well, I'm learning. I don't miss anything.

    [Unidentified woman]: She's done very well.

    Bennett: Oh, I think she has.

    Johnson: I'm ninety, you know.

    Bennett: I know, I think it's amazing.

    Johnson: Did you know?

    Bennett: Well, I would not have guessed it, I'll be very honest, but you did tell me before. I mean, we had discussed this, I think.

    Johnson: Wouldn't have guessed it — why?

    Bennett: Oh, you're so sharp, wouldn't you say?

    Johnson: Oh, well, that's God's work. I don't take any credit for that. God gave me a good brain, and God gave me memory.

    Bennett: Okay, but also, you use it to the right advantage.

    Johnson: Yes.

    Bennett: You could say I don't want to, or I don't care or whatever.

    Johnson: Well, there's lots of people in the home here and they're only seventy— five and seventy-eight and younger, and they can't remember anything. You ask them something - like you ask them something about their childhood, they don't know what school they went to. I don't know — and yet they're normal people. It's very sad.

    Bennett: Yes, but that's sad, it really is.

    Johnson: I feel sorry for them. I'm on the Welcoming Committee...

    [Unidentified woman]: She is really unusual.

    Bennett: Oh yes, I think so.

    Johnson: You know, I'm on the Welcoming Committee in this home, Mrs. Ellis is the owner of this home, and she told the girl that makes all the things for us to enjoy and all, and she said, "I want Mrs. Jackson put on that Committee." So when this girl that was in charge of all the activities, I said, "Well, what does it pay?" She said, "Nothing," she said, "Mrs. Ellis wants you." I said, "Why?" She said, "Because you're the best talker in the home here." So when new people come in, I go in to them, I welcome them in, I tell them we are happy to have them, we hope they are going to be happy, and they'll find out that there's lot of activities here. We have church every Monday, a lady comes and explains the Bible, and she can hold that crowd silent, I've never seen any ministers hold a crowd that way — some of them are not normal, you know — I told her last week, I said, "Janet, I have a compliment to give you." She said, "Oh, give it to me, what is it?" I said, "Last week we had twenty-five or thirty members in that room when you were reading the Bible and explaining it." I said, "You could have heard a pin drop." I said, "I'm going to tell you something. I used to go hear Billy Sunday and I said he couldn't hold an audience in silence as long as you did." Oh, she kissed me and she says, "Oh, am I glad to hear that." And it was, it's true. They were enjoying it.

    Bennett: She has, yeah, just the right way.

    Johnson: Oh yes, she is just wonderful. Well, anything else you want...

    Bennett: Are you tired?

    Johnson: No.

    [Unidentified woman]: Well, Auntie, I really think you should stop.

    Johnson: Well, a little bit more if you want it.

    [Unidentified woman]: I need to interfere here, but the thing is, she will get tense later.

    Bennett: Okay. Well now, look, this might be a good place to stop, and the next time, if you don't mind, we'll talk about Christmas and birthdays and we'll talk about Halloween and those type of things and then I'm going to ask you a lot of odds and end questions. A lot that you have answered, but that you can talk about again.

    [Unidentified woman]: I'd rather you do that, Auntie.

    Bennett: Shall we do that?

    [Unidentified woman]: Okay, I really think she's had it.

    Johnson: Oh, I won't forget anything.

    Bennett: Did you want to read this, what you have in your hand, into the recorder?

    Johnson: Oh, well, I...

    [Unidentified man]: I think she's got it all down, oh no, well you wanted to — had some birthdays...

    Johnson: Well, now Charles helped me some, Charles told me some things to remember that I had told him and...

    [Unidentified man]: You're going to have to tell them about your first day in school.

    Bennett: Okay, we'll do that, we'll do that - because she...

    Johnson: I want to read - I can read - I can read some of this to — might be amusing. Well, I talked about my Father and Mother and all. And then I told you about the butcher, and then I told you about the milkman, I have these jotted down, and I said — well, then I told you about the outhouse, and about playing with Alfred I. du Pont's children, and then I know all about the barns that were burned down.

    Bennett: I'll hear about those later — good.

    Johnson: Okay, well, I've got that jotted down. And then I - Christ Church, well christened and confirmed in Christ Church, that I told you. And, let me see, well then I told you about the outhouse, the sheds and so on and so forth. And I told you the names of my sisters, I had no brothers. Well, I mostly covered most of these, the five sisters. I didn't tell you the other nephews, though.

    Bennett: All right, why don't you put the nephews, then we'll be sure to have them.

    Johnson: There was Jane McClaren, she had another boy.

    Bennett: James? What was...

    [Unidentified woman]: Jane.

    Bennett: Jane?

    [Unidentified woman]: That's her older sister.

    Johnson: The oldest sister we told you about. And then Ethel had a brother to Nellie Maxwell, and Ethel is the only granddaughter to Dad, Father had.

    Bennett: Okay.

    Johnson: I'd like to get them in, and then there was another McClaren boy, but I loved him dearly, just passed away and I adored him. I adore this boy here, he's my newsboy, he brings me my paper every morning while I'm laying in bed, and I read it.

    Bennett: Well, how nice — convenient.

    Johnson: And he said to me one morning, "Auntie, you've got it made. You're laying in bed, and here's the newspaper." I said, "Well, Son, when you're ninety years of age, it's coming to you, too." And he laughed.

    [Unidentified man]: I'll be so tired from carrying your paper, I won't make it.

    Johnson: I said, "Helen will be bringing your breakfast up to bed," I said...

    [Unidentified woman]: Helen, how about poor Helen?

    [Unidentified man]: She's got it made now.

    Johnson: Taking care of Charles. I don't want to bore you with something...

    [Unidentified man]: But you notice — I noticed that all the pictures she showed you were all men - there were no women in there in all those pictures.

    Bennett: I was looking for Mrs. Maxwell's picture, I thought I was gonna...

    [Unidentified man]: Oh, you have one?

    Bennett: Okay, but I don't know whether it's in this book or not, and I just wondered if it was the same - there, could that be the Mrs. Maxwell, the name - they call that Mrs. Maxwell.

    Johnson: No, no.

    Bennett: It could be somebody else?

    [Unidentified woman]: Oh no.

    Johnson: That was - I'll tell you who it was. It's old Mrs. Maxwell, she lived up in Wagoner's Row and Mosey Campbell was in charge of the laborers, he was boss of the laborers, his wife was a Maxwell. And he had twin daughters, Ellen and Elizabeth, and one son, [Merl?]. And she was the mother of Mosey Campbell, and Mosey Campbell was in charge of the laborers, and a rough, old Irishman he was, and he was over six foot tall, and boney.

    Bennett: Well, she's a big woman!

    Johnson: She's a big, yeah, no that's old Mrs. Maxwell. You know who that is, Ethel?

    [Unidentified woman]: No.

    Johnson: You know Mrs. Johnson that lived - Miltie Johnson's wife?

    [Unidentified woman]: Yes.

    Johnson: This is her mother.

    [Unidentified woman]: Really?

    Johnson: Yep, that's her mother.

    [Unidentified woman]: I didn't even know she lived up there.

    Johnson: Oh yeah, that's her mother. She lived just north of your Father's, but it's a way out.

    Bennett: Well, when the name Maxwell — that's the only Maxwell I know, you know, and I wondered from before when she mentioned it if it...

    [Unidentified man]: Well where was Dick born and raised, your Father?

    Johnson: Kentmere.

    [Unidentified man]: Kentmere? That was another world.

    Johnson: And his people was from Christiana.

    [Unidentified woman]: They're talking about my Dad.

    Bennett: Yes. Well, I think we'll conclude this for today, Mrs. Jackson, and we'll set up a time and I'll come back, how would that be?

    Johnson: Well, I hope you're satisfied.

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